Good evening, welcome to the April 9th uh session of the City of Frederick Historic Preservation Commission hearing and workshop.

Uh call this hearing to order.

Um just a note if anybody wants a printed copy of the agenda, it's over on the side table at the uh door, you can get a printed copy as well as a sign-in sheet.

Uh if you're presenting or sorry, if you're presenting tonight, don't necessarily need to sign in, but if you're a member of the public who wishes to speak, it helps to uh have your name so we can get that record accurate.

Also, if anybody has any problems uh with hearing uh any portion of the hearing tonight, there are listing devices.

You can see Tansy over here on the side table.

And she has uh uh hearing aids devices that can help.

The Frederick City Historic Preservation Commission uses these guidelines adopted by the mayor and city council and the secretary of interior standards for rehabilitation published by the US Department of Interior, National Park Service.

And these guidelines are made a part of each and every case.

So answer I do.

It is the purpose of the historic preservation commission to safeguard the historical and cultural heritage of the city of Frederick by preserving sites, structures, or districts that reflect elements of cultural, social, economic, political, archaeological, or architectural history to stabilize and approve property values of such sites, structures, or districts, to foster civic beauty to strengthen the local economy, and to promote the preservation and appreciation of such site structures and districts for the education and welfare of the residents of the city of Frederick.

In order to be eligible to vote on an application, the commissioner must first have made the required site visit and attended any and all meetings at which such an application was discussed.

In the event a commissioner is absent from any such meeting, a commissioner may satisfy the attendance requirement by reviewing a record of that meeting.

It is presumed that if the commissioner makes no statement at this time, they have done so and are prepared to vote on the agenda this evening.

That being said, are there any commissioners with statements of eligibility?

Mr.

Kinsey?

Yep.

On the final case to be heard, um, HPC 26-50, 53 All Saints Street.

I will be recusing myself and uh abstending myself from the hearing room.

Which one?

Charlie.

The final case.

Um 53 All Saint Street.

East All Saint Street.

Which is uh HP C 26-50.

All right.

Are there any announcements this evening?

Yes.

Excuse me.

I did have one announcement.

Um April 13th, the City of Frederick in partnership with Plumundan Hospitality Partners and the Maryland Room at the Seaburts Burr Arts Library will be hosting the seventh annual digging local event at 6 p.m.

in the community room.

Uh this is in celebration of Maryland Archaeology Month.

This year we're highlighting the exciting research at the site of the Frederick Hotel and Conference Center where the Byerley Tannery once stood and the work of the archaeological conservancy, which has an office here in Frederick.

Okay, thank you.

Any other announcements?

Moving on to approval of the minutes for the hearing on workshop.

Any corrections, commissioners.

I second the motion.

Motion made and seconded for approval of the March 26, 2026 hearing and workshop minutes.

All in favor, raise your hand.

Motion carries five to zero.

Thanks.

Under HPC business, we have administrative approval report.

Thank you.

I want to enter the entire administrative approval report into the record and acknowledge that 24 applications were reviewed and processed last month.

Never stops, does it?

Next item under HPC business demolition review HPC 26-107 DR, located at 8415 Gas House Pike.

And Mr.

Masser.

Thank you.

Um I'd like to enter the entire memo into the record.

A request for demolition review has been submitted submitted per section 423A of the land management code and per section 515B of the City Code for a stone structure at the Clustered Spires Golf Course, located at 8415 Gas House Pike.

Planning staff has determined that the structure is in whole or in part 50 years or older based on this evaluation.

The Historic Preservation Commission is charged with determining if the property is potentially eligible for individual historic designation.

The criteria for designation is outlined in full in the memo.

A little bit about the building, the one-story stone building designed as an ice house at 8415 Gas House Pike is one of the few remaining structures from the McMurray Farm Complex.

This single bay, random rubble ice house was built around 1850.

In 1990, the primary dwelling was removed from the site during the golf course redevelopment.

The property is located outside of the Frederick Historic District and is listed on Maryland's Inventory of Historic Properties as part of the McMurray farm in 2014.

The Historic Preservation Commission reviewed the property for designation, but did not issue a positive recommendation for rezoning to the planning commission and the mayor and board of Alderman.

Staff has determined that the structure lacks both significance and historic integrity and does not meet the criteria for individual designation.

Therefore, staff recommends that the commission not pursue a designation application.

And with that, I'll take any questions.

I guess just for clarification, this these uh the structure specifically is located on City of Frederick property, namely the golf course.

Yes, that's correct.

I don't know if you could clarify a little bit about the 2014 case or 2015.

Uh what prompted the review and and or why it wasn't or uh how the case was decided.

Sure.

Um I believe at that time uh a demolition application was submitted.

Um and so because it was 50 years or older, it went before the commission for review.

Um it's multiple buildings.

And it was multiple buildings at the time, I believe it was um a cluster of three there.

Wait a minute.

So the de the demolition request was for other farm buildings, not specifically the ice house.

It included the ice house, but also included other buildings which are um, I believe are already torn down.

Now, when when the uh golf course was originally uh the farm was originally zoned to be a golf course, oftentimes the planning commission requires the developer to preserve a number of the farm buildings.

Was that not the case in this particular rezoning?

I couldn't speak to that because that happened well before I I was here.

The I don't know when that golf course was installed.

Uh I believe the redevelopment was in the 1990s.

Okay.

Um we didn't have a demolition review ordinance at that point that would have protected the these at the early stage.

Um, so that's why the house is gone and all the other buildings are gone.

Um last time I I did a site visit, I think with the original application was 2014.

So that's when I went out and did my initial site visit.

There were a couple buildings still there, they were all in various degrees of I don't want to say decay.

I'm trying to think of another word, but they they were um in various degrees of um upkeep, disrepair would be a fair word.

Yes, I believe that was the uh the milking barn, the spring house, and the ice house that were proposed for uh demolition at that time.

Uh and all three of those buildings.

I'm sorry.

Uh please.

Okay.

So uh you know the ice house to me, uh they're pretty rare.

You know, we see a lot of spring houses, but this is an actual ice house with a deep pit.

Undoubtedly, it was used right by the Minoxie River.

Ice would have been harvested from it and stored there.

Um, probably supply, probably sold ice.

Um so it it kind of to me to say it was it's not historically significant, uh, is not sure I agree with that.

Um I would also say that it's in really bad shape.

Uh I know several of us actually went out to the site.

Um I first the pictures don't really do justice to just how bad it is, what how bad it is.

If the stone walls were intact, I would have thought that a better solution would have been to rebuild the wooden roof structure.

But the one wall is partially collapsed, another corner, there is a tree that's intruded on the structure.

It would be uh to fix it would probably be building a new a new structure.

So um just uh moving beyond the the significance of it, but uh I probably would when we go go to vote.

I think I would have to keep in mind the deteriorated state of the property.

I mean any other questions on the staff report specifically.

Yes, please.

Um so in the package, it there's a photograph on page 12.

It talks about September 2014, received December 4th that year.

And it is three buildings.

It is the milking barn, it is the spring house, and it is the ice shed.

All of them in hideous disrepair, no doubt.

It's amazing what you know 20 years will do to a building that's not had any maintenance.

I have other comments, but my concern right now is we're suggesting that only the ice house is what's being addressed in this moment, and that's the only thing that's being asked to be demolished.

Well, the other two buildings are going to remain.

At this time, yes, in this demolition review.

I did uh have a conversation with Mr.

Springer.

Um he said, well, on the uh ice house, a tree had fallen on the roof, which created uh prompted uh the request for demolition here.

Uh believe the dairy barn and the uh the other structure had asphalt shingles uh tiles on them.

So that's probably partial the reason why nothing has been done on those or and or not included in this application, uh all three buildings are similar uh disrepair um I guess just Mr.

Master, just to clarify back to the 2014-2015 decision, this HBC decided not to move forward with a historic preservation overlay.

And since that they could have demolished on then, but for whatever reason they just set there now that that original, I guess time has elapsed for a demolition on that, or is that still valid?

I think you explained that really well.

I'm just going to clarify one or two points.

The the commission did make an application to designate.

So a staff report was drafted much more in depth than the memo and all the application material requirements, all that was developed and submitted, and it was an application for a zoning map amendment to apply a historic preservation overlay on these three buildings.

It went to hearing, there was discussion, but ultimately the vote was not to move forward, not to submit a positive recommendation to the planning commission, and that at that time the Board of Watermen.

And so at that point, that's where the process ends.

If it doesn't receive a positive recommendation at that point, a certificate to demolish is issued, it was that certificate is valid for five years.

But that was 2015, it's expired, so now they're going through the whole process all over again.

Four this time instead of three buildings.

The one uh two things are um apparent to me.

Um there is significance, considerable significance uh to this site.

Um there's also a big hole in the site.

Um I think in terms of disrepair, uh, disrepair is overshadowed by the uh the hazard that the ice house presents to the public.

There are people roaming the golf course in their pursuit of golf, and uh any one of them could out of curiosity fall five feet and crack their skull in that building.

So obviously there is a serious uh matter to consider in terms of the proposed demolition of this building.

Uh nevertheless, the significance of the building, the quality of the work, and the significance of the building in some larger ways, I think is enough to uh uh for me justify attempting again to uh designate it as a significant historic building.

Uh its visual impact, its historical significance, and its cultural enhancement to the image of Frederick and Frederick County as a rural and 19th century place, is intensely visible to the people playing golf on that site, to people who might be visitors playing golf on that site.

There is a there is a broad statement of what Frederick has been sitting there free of charge to advertise the history of the city of Frederick.

I'm pleased to know that there is some ownership of the golf course in the hands of the city.

So I am not making a case for the uh restoration or the salvation of a historic building that would have that has already come into the hands of the of public of private ownership.

Um I think this building would be worth designating as a significant small scale but significant uh reminder of Frederick's history.

And I would not hesitate to remind us that our role here is not simply to evaluate structural uh conditions of various buildings and and goodness knows we have thousands of various buildings to consider, but the message that many of these buildings give, some of them in a very powerful way.

That ice house is an amazing structure in its small way, but it would need repair uh let me foregoing any further discussion on the merits of of the application.

Is there any specific questions for staff on the on the memorandum?

No.

And I would ask if there's any members of the public or an agent for the application who wishes to speak on this application for demolition.

All right, Commissioners.

Now I'll call it back up to us for discussion.

Mr.

McMaine.

Uh I agree with Commissioner Kelly that this is a significant and with Commissioner Kennedy Kinsey that this is a this structure is significant and rare from a cultural, historic, and archaeological standpoint.

We are losing farms around here at a rapid rate, and preserving some of the vestiges of our uh rural heritage, I think is increasingly important.

I'd also point out that there's a TV show that's been on for a number of years called Stonehouse Builders, where they've are mostly filmed in Pennsylvania where they've been restoring buildings in much worse shape this than this, uh complete houses, uh spring houses, ice houses, you you name it, and the fact that we've got a rare one around here right on a uh golf course that's open to the public.

I think this is it provides us an opportunity uh to put some interpretation there and to stabilize that structure, at least if we don't fully restore it, because I think it's pretty important.

So I absolutely agree.

And every building we tear down, it's just more of our history gone, lost.

And in reading the report, we're gonna fill it in as if it never existed.

I spent a lot of time with a lot of historians in my part-time work, and uh recently there has been a discovery of a particular photograph that some individual researchers have been able to piece together the actual date and time of when this photograph was taken from two important things some historic weather reports, knowing when it had rained, and a particular coal chute on Market Street that they can see in the photograph.

So these simplest things that look like nothing or in such disrepair could be incredibly significant to generations in the future.

So I'd ask us to consider that as well I'd also like to point out I live in a development on uh that has a uh where they didn't allow the demolition of all the farm buildings, and the the house there uh at East Church is the centerpiece of the community.

If we didn't have that house, it'd be a very different community.

And and I think that you know, once again, uh this is this is a property that I think that is worth uh individual designation.

I guess that'll be somewhat of a contrarian uh in the scope of work talks about the uh the condition of uh the root metal roof and and stone walls, uh mainly collapsing from age, I would say collapsing from neglect.

And in our fair city, I guess even the local government is sometimes guilty of demolition by neglect, and that's quite unfortunate.

Um I do feel this structure along with the others has lost a significant uh portion of its historical significance and and integrity, and uh being outside of the historic district uh to put a preservation overlay, I think requires a higher level of uh merit, and those items are listed on page one of the memorandum here of you know does this structure exhibit any of those characteristics to qualify separately uh for preservation overlay.

It is listed on the Maryland Inventory of Historic Properties.

Um I guess whatever discussion was previously for HBC, they decided not to move forward with it.

I guess I would um maybe question for Ms.

Martin Koske.

I mean, um generally a historic preservation overlay would apply to the entire property, not just a single building on that property or one of the considerations that the Historic Preservation Commission would have to um keep in mind are the boundaries.

Um the commission has gone both ways.

Um we've had a historic preservation apply only to the footprint of the building and no more.

Uh we've had um historic preservation overlays apply to a buffer area of approximately a hundred feet.

Um and then we've also just applied it to the whole property.

And usually for most like suburban type properties, we just apply it to the whole the whole lot.

It's just nice and clean and simple.

For more agricultural area, um the examples I'm thinking about are um Bogman's Lane where it was just applied to a portion of the lot, but at the same time, we also have an example of like the odd food uh the Oddfellows home where it was applied to the whole property.

Um I think in this case we don't have a lot of supporting buildings with this, so I think that's a consideration that the commission would would have to take into consideration.

So could it be?

I'm sorry, don't let me uh and I guess on that note, I mean if we did put an overlay on either on the structure or uh a boundary around uh these buildings in general.

Um if that requires or prompts the owner, in this case the city, to I guess at least go and make them safe from anyone entering the property and further causing harm to themselves or to the property.

But I mean it would seem to me you could remove the roof and either leave the stone walls standing or take down the stone walls to uh forfeit height just to uh leave the element of the building there, physical element of the building, or is there some um I wanna say mandate that you would have to restore it or at least structurally?

Really thoughtful comments and some feedback.

Um so let's say this demolition review wasn't for the whole building, but just for the roof structure with the plan to do exactly what you say, keep the the stone structure.

A demolition review application would still be required because removal of the roof structure would trigger the demolition review process.

The thing is, no matter if the applicant is removing the root just the roof structure because they want to preserve the building, or because they want to demolish the whole building, it really doesn't unpack your review at all because that's you're not reviewing the demolition.

You're reviewing is is this property eligible for the national register all by itself?

Is this building eligible all by itself to meet the highest level of historic significance and integrity to be individually eligible for designation?

So I realize that it's not in this moment, but we had this happen on Bauman's Lane.

Where it's one building, and in a year from now it's another of the buildings, and four years from now it's another of the buildings.

So we would offer that if we're going to protect, we should protect the three of these buildings as they stand.

And that's for my fellow commissioners.

Um it is in their relationship to each other and what they mean to the patterns of history, right?

This was a farm, and these buildings were significant as a collective.

So yeah, I just um I hear what you're saying.

I hear that it's only for the roof, or it's only for this particular building, but I know I've sat on this board and I have watched building after building come in piecemeal.

And we're not looking at the collective.

And I would offer that as the collective, this does it stands in uh some of these significant criteria, the broad patterns of history, exemplify how we've lived.

All of those things are true, particularly the three buildings together.

I would just like to address and not discuss the matter of whether this building rises to the level of a national treasure, which is what I understand from your remarks, Christina, is something of the gauge by which we're operating, under which we are operating.

We're dealing with local preservation.

We're dealing with an ice house in Frederick.

We're not dealing with something that compares to the PEC house in Annapolis with which I am very familiar.

And again, to avoid discussion of the sort that you have cautioned us not to get into, I don't know why that discussion has to require a reference to the power of a national standard.

Obviously, we operate under national standards, and God it's we are operating with a local historic site of local commission and local public input.

But our language exactly mirrors that of the National Register.

So we're when we're designating something locally, we're saying this meets the same standards as it would be required to be on the National Register.

Well, I would think you could argue, and I won't do it, we're not into that discussion that the people of Frederick would consider themselves honored by that building the same way the people of Annapolis are honored by the Pika House.

I I would just comment, I think we meet the criteria under the ordinance.

Well, I'd say the cultural group is farmers.

This is a you know has what was historically an agricultural uh county.

Uh the second thing I would say is that it does indeed exhibit uh embody the distinctive characteristics of a type of period or method of construction.

I mean, in the 1850s, 175 years ago when this ice house was being built, almost everything around here was being built was stone house stone, the houses were stoned, the barns were stoned, we had uh, you know, ice houses and spring houses were stoned, but they've been disappearing, you know, lickety split.

And and I think that preserving some vestiges of our rural heritage, particularly given the the rapid industrialization of our rural landscape uh around here, uh I think we should be thinking about designating this because I think it beats the criteria under the National Register.

If we were to look at you know preserving either the structure or a boundary limits, including all three or or even more, I guess our vote tonight is to substantiate whether we felt merits a historic preservation overlay, and then uh you would define you know the parameters if we said just the building or uh boundary of a certain sort.

Um as well as you know, any uh part of the uh designation eligibility requirements that we may establish I would say in speaking with the uh grounds manager there, he did state that he had planned to use the stone from this uh ice house to put around the perimeter of an adjacent pond just uh uh help stabilize the uh the edge of the pond there, which you know would be intends to reuse the stone for some other purposes, but so here's my thought on that again 1850s, right?

We're talking a long time ago.

We're talking before the Civil War.

We're talking building uh design and fabrication and workmanship in a fashion that we don't have today.

So even if he reuses the stone, I think the interpretation is seeing those three structures together and how we lived as an agricultural county that many years ago.

I I just um I appreciate that he would want to reuse the stone, given many times folks don't want to, but again, I really believe these buildings have significant purpose for our history for the future to be able to maintain them with a historic preservation overlay.

I have one question.

Uh was the barn the subject of arson?

Because it looks like some of these historical photos, the roof was still intact.

Do we do we know?

I don't have any background on that.

I'm sorry.

I wasn't saying I just think it's decay.

I I just think it's honestly lack of maintenance.

I mean the photographs, I think back in even 2014 looked like the roof was still pretty much intact.

We're sorry to tell the condition, but uh you know, at least 12 years ago, at least there was some semblance, more semblance of roof on all these structures.

Any further discussion, Commissioners?

Our motion in the matter of HPC 26 uh-107 DR at 8415 gas house pike.

I move that it be individually uh that the ice house there be individually uh added to the historic uh overlay for what what's the wording for the word.

Yeah, the wording is to we would pursue designation of a historic preservation overlay.

Overlay, right.

Submitting a zoning map amendment to apply a historic preservation overlay.

Okay.

Commissioner might have the motion.

Okay.

Motion made and second to um approve the application for a start preservation overlay.

I would ask the Commissioner McMahon and uh Commissioner Kelly if they might uh amend their motion to include all three structures and perhaps include a perimeter or I'm gonna have legal step in and provide comment on that.

Okay.

She doesn't have a mic.

Is this working?

Yeah, hi.

I will suggest that we stick with the application before us, which is to this non cartridge.

We can't include additional structures that is not part of this application.

So we just stick to this application, yes.

Because this demolition review was a mandatory demolition review because he was attempting to demolish the property.

The optional demolition review, which a property owner could bring an application for designation, but this is a mandatory one, so we have to stick with this particular structure.

So just and let me ask this because staff has stated that we could include footage around not defining other structures, but we could say a thousand feet around the building at this particular building.

We could do that.

Reading the reading the language of this ordinance says structure.

So I will just say if the application is for the structure, the vote the motion should be specific to the structure.

Thank you, ma'am.

Well, I guess I'm challenged by that.

I mean, don't we have the uh purview and authority to pretty much designate anything we want?

Application or no application?

Can we make an application for preserving the rest of it ourselves?

I know we can do that.

You can, but I don't want us to overstretch our boundaries for this particular application, so I just want us to limit our vote to the structure.

Because staff would have to provide you with staff comments and research on the other structures that you don't have before you today to make that decision.

So I'll on the side of caution that we should just stick with the structure since you have the reports and everything before you.

Yeah, it's it's usually part of the the staff report and staff recommendations with the the zoning map amendment application.

So let me just ask this though.

If we strict only with this structure and we don't take into consideration the other two buildings, how do we as a board have the authority to say now we are going to include those other two buildings as well?

Well and there was some discussion of doing a site visit out there and maybe perhaps we should do that before we talk about the other buildings.

So I made a site visit.

Yeah, I I I couldn't I couldn't walk that far to see it.

If we want a group site visit, I can request that.

I just need notifications so I we can do our um open meeting act requirements.

What would be the procedure for us as commission to designate any property, including the other structures on this property?

In the past, we've always in the past we've had um a designation committee.

Um that was ages ago before the demolition review ordinance uh came in effect where we had this active body looking at properties to designate.

Um but when the demolition review ordinance came in effect, we just didn't have any we didn't have the staffing to do both, and really we were just more reactive to the demolition reviews.

The result is we ended up with more protected properties, um, but it was more reactive than proactive.

I think it is worthy of merit.

Uh for us to review specifically the other structures of I mean it's hard for the one structure to stand on his uh own, but certainly if they decided to demolish the any uh other structures, they would have to come back before us.

But maybe I don't know if we want to investigate further as commission whether we want to make uh an application for designation on the other structures to include a periphery boundary for uh the site itself.

Uh despite the uh decayed state of the structures, the the stone foundation's uh walls are in excellent shape.

The stone does look good.

There is potential here for added value and amenity to the golf course.

It certainly adds uh an attractive background that could certainly look more attractive uh and potentially be you know used for you know an amenity space for the golf courts itself.

So um just adding to that.

Um I noticed that it there's a stone silo, which are really rare, and that silo is actually in really good condition.

Uh and um that's something we might want to if we did another visit, I think that's something that we would want to look at.

So another visit or not, we have a motion on the table, right?

And this is for as legal has guided us for this particular structure, and then um as the chairman has noted, then we would need to take on as a commission the remaining structures on this property.

So any further discussion on the main motion.

All in favor of the motion, please raise your hand.

Motion carries five to zero.

Thanks.

Seeing no consent items or continuances and move on to cases to be heard.

First item on the cases to be heard, HBC 25-382 located at 331 North Market Street.

And that's Ms.

Hoffed's.

Thank you.

I'd like to enter the whole staff report into the record.

This application concerns the proposal to install new TPO and asphalt shingle roofing, gutter replacement, rooftop HVAC units, installation of new composite wood trim board, use neck lighting, masonry repairs, masonry painting, and wood window repairs with blackout film.

This application has been previously workshopped, so I'm going to move forward to staff comments.

The commercial building at 331 North Market Street was constructed in 1959 and historically served as a CarMac J supermarket.

The original structure was a one-story concrete block with stone construction with a concrete block tower positioned along West 4th Street.

The property went significant property went through significant alterations by 2008 and now features a brick facade with storefront windows and an addition of a second story.

The property at 331 North Market Street is identified as a non-contributing resource in the 2021 National Register update.

There are three product lines with different descriptions.

It's unclear to staff what product line is being proposed.

Its use may be appropriate on the non-historic building, but the film should not should have a non-mirror finish.

As discussed at workshop, an opaque window film was proposed to be installed on the lower windows.

However, the updated documentation reflects that the window film is proposed only for the second story windows.

The applicant will need to clarify this information as it's intended if it's intended for the storefront windows.

Per the guidelines, the commission may approve the installation of window film when in the context of energy efficiency.

Staff find that the installation of window film may be appropriate due to the windows being non-historic and the building a non-contributing resource.

The applicant is proposing to install new double leaf 3-4 glass door with a lower panel on the northern side of the North Market Street elevation.

Replacing the existing window opening.

Per the guidelines, it's not appropriate to damage original walls with new entrances, and such modifications will only be approved on a case-by-case basis.

Since this section is part of the 2008 renovations, this alteration may be appropriate.

The proposed Anderson doors product is available in wood wood in an aluminum clad.

Given the non-contributing nature of the building and with its significant setback, staff find that the three-force glass door set in a wood or metal frame may be appropriate for the commercial location.

For lighting, the applicant is proposing to install three gooseneck lightings according to the drawings for anticipation to illuminate future signage.

It's unclear if the lights are to be mounted into the mortar joints.

Per the guidelines, like fixtures attached to masonry walls, should be mounted mounted into the mortar joints.

Masonry, the applicant only identified masonry repairs for the stone caps.

If additional exterior masonry repairs are discovered during the rehabilitation process, then the applicant will need to come back to staff for a minor modification to address additional concerns.

For general comments, staff find no inconsistencies with the proposed following rehabilitation work when referencing the guidelines.

Weather ceiling windows, installation of rooftop HVAC units, TPO and asphalt roof roofing replacement, cricket installation to mitigate water, gutter system, gooseneck lighting product literature, and composite trim and rooftop hatch.

No updated scope of work has been provided in the resubmission documentation.

The current scope of work does not reflect the gooseneck lighting or the new doorway proposal.

And I'm going to tweak my last sentence.

Staff addresses these items in their condition.

Staff recommends the commission approve the application with the following conditions.

That the gooseneck lighting is installed into the mortar joints, that one new opening holding a double leaf entry doors, maybe aluminum or wood or aluminum clad per the product literature and drawings provided.

That the blackout wooden window film is a non-mirror finish, and that any masonry repairs are limited to the stone caps.

Any additional work will require further review by staff, and with that I'll take any questions.

Commissioner, is any questions for staff on the report?

Sure, I have a question about the uh uh where you say this current scope of work does not reflect the gooseneck lighting or the doorway proposal.

Well, should that be added as a condition of the approval staff recommends approval with that is one of the conditions because that isn't since they're illustrated in the drawings and we recognize them in the conditions of the staff report that we feel that is sufficient enough whenever it goes to the rest of the permitting process.

Okay, so they don't won't have to come back here for anything.

Correct, yeah, they wouldn't have to.

Okay, thank you.

Any other questions on the staff report?

All right, if the applicant or agent would want to step forward uh to the microphone at the podium.

One of you want to introduce yourself for the record, please.

I'm Sal.

My name is Sal.

Um I jointly owned the 331.

If it's on the I jointly own the 331 Market Street property.

Do you have any questions, concerns regarding the staff report?

Uh no.

Just uh we want to keep it the way it is and uh just make improvements.

Commissioners, any questions for the applicant?

I think the property has been vacant for a long time.

So was a question on the blackout film is proposing blackout film on the lower level windows or no on the upper level.

Just only is not a true second store, it's more an attic space.

Correct.

It's just uh the windows just for decoration.

It just goes to the rooftop.

I believe uh Mr.

Head on.

Another question.

On the film itself of three different product lines or which you submit the package sufficient or more clarification.

The in my conditions as long as it has a non-mirror finish.

Um it's already stated in the drawings that it's going to be an opaque film, but that it just not have a mirror finish as part of my staff commit uh conditions.

Okay.

Any other questions for the applicant or staff?

All right, sorry if I want to see temporarily.

Thank you.

Then members of the public here tonight wish to speak on this application.

All right, Commercial Charge will move it back up to us for discussion.

I can make a motion.

Yep.

Okay.

Mr.

Chairman, I'm familiar with the property at uh 331 North Market Street.

Uh and I'm familiar with HPC 25-382 as presented tonight.

I find that the project is compatible with the character of the district and is consistent with the Federic Town Historic Historic District Design Guidelines with respect to the proposed um improvements.

Therefore, I move to approve the application uh with the condition, following conditions that it will be would be reviewed by um staff.

That gooseneck lighting uh be installed into the mortar joints, that one new opening holding double leaf entry doors be made of wood or aluminum clad per the product literature and drawings provided.

That the blackout window film is non-mirror finished, and the masonry repairs are limited to the stone caps.

Any additional work will require review by staff.

I second the uh motion.

All right, motion made and seconded to approve the application with conditions.

Any further discussion all in favor of the motion, raise your hand.

Motion carries five to zero.

Thank you.

Next case is HPC 26-20 at 337 West Patrick Street.

And that's Ms.

Hofdett's again.

I'd like to enter the whole staff report into the record.

This application concerns the demolition of a non-historic wood steps located at the rear of the property.

The replacement is being reviewed under HBC 26-49 and addresses a proposal to infill a rear door opening with woodlap siding.

The guidelines state that every reasonable effort must be made to retain and preserve historic fabric in the historic district.

When a contributing historic resource is demolished, a vital and tangible link to the city's past is lost.

This loss disrupts the historic streetscape and decreases the historical and architectural integrity of the entire district.

These guidelines are intended to discourage demolition, therefore they force the commission to review a process that is deliberate and thorough.

Demolition will only be considered when all other feasible alternatives to demolition have been considered.

The commission must identify if the building structure or site in the in its entirety is a contributing or non-contributing resource to the historic district.

Additionally, there are special considerations for contributing resources of unusual importance.

In the case of partial demolition, the commission will consider the impact the demolition would have on the significance of the overall resource.

Partial demolition of a contributing resource will not be approved if demolition will alter so alter the overall building site structure or objects such that the building site or structure structure or object will no longer be contributing.

For property history, the building at 337 West Patrick Street is first depicted on the 1887 sandboard fire and insurance map as a two-story wood frame construction with a two-story L and one story addition.

The building is a good representation of vernacular architecture.

The rear of the building has gone through several alterations with additions and accessory structures.

Sometime between 1960 and 1983, the footprint of the building was significantly reduced to its current condition.

In the case of partial demolition, the commission will need to consider the impact of the demolition would have on the significance of the overall resource.

However, at the first meeting, the commission's review is limited to determining the contributing slash non-contributing status of the resource in its entirety.

Staff recommends the commission find the commercial building at 337 West Patrick Sheet to be contributing resource to the Fredericktown Historic District.

This finding is consistent with the 2021 National Register nomination.

The replacement plan, the construction date of the rear wood staircase is unknown, but is a non-historic feature.

The proposed replacement plan is to infill the associated doorway with woodlap siding to match the surrounding wall.

The exterior wall associated with the rear staircase appears to have been constructed circa 1983.

The replacement plan is scheduled to be reviewed at a public hearing on April 23rd, 2026, but no significant inconsistencies with the guidelines have been identified.

Staff recommends that the Commission find the resource to be a contributing find the resource to be contributing resource to the Fredericktown Historic District.

And with that, I'll take any questions.

I would just reiterate again for the commissioners here.

We're looking at just consideration for a contributing resource versus any uh proposed demolition, which will be uh first step of a contributing resource or non-contributing.

Are there any questions for staff?

I would ask if there's anybody representing this uh application if they want to step forward.

Were you sworn in earlier?

Yes, sir.

Okay.

If you want to state your name, yes, Callum Maxie, agent of the owner.

Any uh concerns, questions regarding the staff report?

No, it's kind of straightforward, but questions for the agent, Commissioners.

I think it's a handsome house, and I'm glad you're working on it.

I'm sorry.

So it's a handsome house.

I'm glad you're working on it.

Yes.

All right, so if you want to have a seat temporarily for any other member of the public here tonight wishes to speak on this application.

All right, commissioners will bring it back up with here with us.

I think this one's pretty straightforward.

I'm prepared to make a motion.

I'm familiar with HPC 26-20 at 337 West Patrick Street.

And I move that we find structure to be a contributing resource.

Second, all right.

Motion made and second to find the um structure to be a contributing resource.

Any further discussion?

All in favor of the motion, please raise your hand.

Motion carries five to zero.

Thanks.

Wait a moment before Mr.

Kinsey exits.

And that goes to Mr.

Masser.

Yes, thank you.

I'd like to submit the entire staff report into the record.

This application concerns a proposal to install a gas meter on the front elevation of the building.

The Fredericktown Historic Design Guidelines provided parameters for utility boxes and meters.

The commission will only approve the installation of a new utility box or meter on the front of a building if no other option is available.

The commission may require documentation supporting a request to install a utility box or meter on the front of a building, including evidence that alternatives are technically infeasible.

In some situations, the commission may require the utility box or meter to be screened from view from the public right-of-way.

The commission may require boxes and meters to be painted to match the building.

The guidelines also offer guidance on deviation from the guidelines, which will not be permitted for contributing resources if any of the following pertain.

The integrity of the streetscape will be compromised, or the integrity of any surrounding historic properties will be compromised, or the contributing resource or its setting will be so altered that it will no longer be contributing.

And with that in mind, staff provides the following comments.

This building is not individually assessed as a resource in the 2021 National Register update.

Instead, it is considered as an addition to the stone building located on a separate lot situated to the east.

However, staff's assessment is specific to the building lot under review, which is a circa 1947 concrete block structure, which offers limited historical and architectural significance to the streetscape.

According to the guidelines, meters should not be installed on the front of a building unless no alternative locations are feasible.

The application includes a write-up with photographs explaining their reasoning for the proposal, which includes site and building limitations and the fact that an existing meter is in the area of the proposed utility.

Staff cannot conclude that there is no other option available but acknowledges the practical advantages outlined in the application.

The guidelines state that the commission may require boxes and meters to be painted, as we discussed earlier, which staff finds is an improv appropriate screening technique on this concrete block building.

The proposal will not compromise the integrity of the streetscape or surrounding historic properties, nor will it impact the significance of this mid-20th century concrete block structure.

For these reasons, staff supports a deviation from the design guidelines.

Therefore, staff recommends approval of the application with condition that the gas meter be painted to match the adjacent wall color.

And with that, I'll take any questions.

Any questions for staff?

Commissioners, I I do have a question about the um the the ongoing rehabilitation of this building.

Um in relation to the keep your comments just to the the application at hand.

I mean, I know there's other things going on and other things are come up to the future, but I don't want to get too far off.

I wanted to ask about the gas meter.

Okay.

Um there was a reference in the um in the write-up that um there will be additional rest rehabilitation work done to this building as it goes on.

Josh could answer, but the applicant is here and would probably be the best point of all right to the to answer that.

Any other questions on the staff report?

Is the applicant or agent here tonight who want to step forward and introduce yourself?

Yes.

Um my name is Jane Bodrin.

I'm actually I'm actually Charlie's sister.

Right there.

All right.

That's why he is not in the room.

Um we're putting, can you hear me?

Do I have to push this button?

It's okay.

All right.

Um, right now we're putting water and sewer into the building that should be done and blacktop, maybe tomorrow.

And then next week we're gonna put in the um front facade, the glass area that's already been approved by HBC, and the one window that was approved by HBC in the front.

Um, the whole reason we're gonna we would like to put the gas in the um block wall is because we don't know what's gonna happen with the parking lot later, so we just thought, you know, so there won't be any accidents or anyway.

That was our thought.

So do you have any more questions about the project?

Oh, thank you.

That's very helpful.

Um concern is that um this is a rather magnificent facade.

Um although at this point we are looking at the gas meter from a practical uh aspects um and I understand what you have described and the staff has determined is that the the situation now concerning the gas meter and its uh its appearance or or non-appearance under a screen or some other location.

Um that I understand that that discussion.

Nevertheless, when I was um viewing that building for its final impact.

The gas meter had a big impact on me.

Because uh when it is finished, when that building is finished.

You mean the whole building.

I would hope the gas meter is not on the front on that facade.

That's my only point.

Well, okay.

I don't know what's gonna happen with the stone part of the building.

Um that belongs to someone else.

So I feel like our the back part that we have the little shed area is secondary to the stone part, so I don't feel like it's um it should be eyesore when it's all the way in the rear of that building.

So um anyway, any other comments or questions or any concerns about painting it, painting the meeting?

Oh no, no, no.

It will look better.

The whole place will look better in a week, I promise.

Can you paint a gas meter?

Yes.

You can okay.

Um there's a um a house on West 2nd that has a gas meter in the front, and it's painted great, it looks very nice.

And then they put a planner in front of it, and we attend to put a planner right there.

And um, we already have the planner, it's just that we need to put the sidewalk in and so in a matter of three weeks the place will look totally different, except for the stone part that doesn't have a roof.

So slightly off base, uh exert my executive privilege to do so.

But uh have you considered uh what electrical requirements we need to upgrade the electric on the building.

So that'll be uh probably a larger exterior.

We had the electrician there today, and I'm not sure what he know.

I'm not sure how much electric comes into the building.

Um I wish I'd gone to the meeting, but I didn't.

Um so I could let you know.

I mean, through well, just something to be cognizant of my personal view.

We see a lot of upgrades to buildings downtown.

And it seems I don't know if it's just convenience for uh the power company or just lack of uh uh the owner providing space on the inside for these large CT cabinets, uh transformer cabinets that seem to be going up on the face of the building.

When they could go on the inside, and I think it's more just uh ease of installation.

I don't I don't want to get into it now, but uh if you are doing upgrades to electric, that's gonna be more uh obvious and and visible than a gas meter will.

Um we have a building, uh the Prophet and Associates.

We we did that building too many years ago, and we actually put a box around the um the electric meter, and um anyway, we're we'll try to make everything look as pleasant as possible.

Okay, thank you.

Any other questions for the applicant?

All right, if you want to have seat.

Okay, great.

Any other members of the public here tonight wish to speak on this application?

All right, commissioners will bring it back to us for a motion.

I'm prepared to make a motion.

I'm familiar with HPC 26-50 at 53 East All Saint Street and I move that we approve the application with the condition that the gas meter is painted to match the adjacent wall color.

I'll second the motion motion made and seconded to approve the application with conditions.

Any further discussion?

All right, all in favor of the application, raise your hand.

Motion carries four to zero.

Mr.

Kinsey um abstra not abstaining, but recused.

Thank you.

All right, before we close this portion of the hearer, is there any buddy here who wishes to speak uh have a comment on historic preservation in general or an upkeep coming workshop case?

Um step forward to the podium.

And I'll wait for Commissioner Kinsey to come back.

There's there's no room for family time on the agenda.

Okay, it is approximately 710.

All right, welcome back.

I call this workshop to order for April 9th, 2026 for the Historic Preservation Commission.

For the City of Frederick.

First case under the workshop HPC 26-34.

Okay, the 179 West All Saint Street.

Mr.

Newman, if you want to come up to the front table.

I don't know if you were here earlier to be sworn in or no.

Let me swear you in.

Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the responses given and statements made in this hearing before the start preservation commission will be the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so answer I do.

Or turn the microphone.

Make sure the green light is on, yeah.

I do.

If you just want to state your name for the record, please.

Brandon Jim.

All right.

Ms.

Martin Koske.

Hello.

Um I would like to start by entering the entire staff report into the record.

I'm going to briefly as briefly as I can go over the standards outlined in the um design guidelines.

And then what we'll do then is move forward with staff comments.

We'll take it bite-sized portions at a time.

We'll start with masonry walls, windows, and chimneys.

Um we'll go over my comments one by one, and then Mr.

Newman, if you're comfortable as I kind of make a comment, if you could provide some feedback, kind of make a little bit more conversational with that point if that works for you.

That works.

All right.

So um again, just confirming that the entire staff reports enter entered into the record.

This uh work is addressed, this application is addressing basically three areas of work.

Um masonry work, including repointing and rebuilding um masonry walls uh to install eight structural pens and to install a standing theme metal roof.

I do believe that the intent is also to rebuild the roof.

Some portions of the roof structure was removed, so it's putting that roof structure back on and then installing a standing sea metal roof.

I briefly, as I mentioned earlier, just want to go over some of the standards outlined in the design guidelines.

First for masonry.

Um masonry fix uh uh features really help define the overall character of the building.

These features need to be identified, repaired, and preserved.

And this includes walls, cornices, hood molds, columns, impediments, and some of these can be um observed on this building.

Um brick used to repair historic work must match the existing brick and material size, color, texture, and finish.

So that's gonna be for some th this is a a fairly substantial um masonry repair and door replacement, and so that's something to keep in mind is that we really want to be mindful of the material that's being used and that it it matches the historic character and and uh masonry detailing.

The guidelines also provide important um parameters for reporting work.

It talks about the preparation needed, um how it's done, the tooling that's used, hand tools are recommended because they're less invasive and less chance for damaging um historic masonry power tools can be permitted on a case-by-case basis, and um typically only on horizontal masonry joints.

Uh the appropriate mortar is really important um on historic masonry walls like the one seen on this building.

Um sort of lime-based mix, uh, masonry mortar is is what's gonna be recommended.

A Portland's ooh.

That wasn't me, that was the mic just getting a little out of hand.

Um a Portland-based, boy, it's the peas.

A Portland-based cement is just too tough on this brickwork, which is just a little bit softer than modern mix.

In regards to walls and windows, we want to see original wall materials retained to the extent possible.

They really should be maintained and the character defining elements around those windows maintained as well.

That includes retaining decorative elements.

Chimneys are character defining elements on a building.

So these guidelines are written to uh retain historic chimneys to the to the extent possible.

Roof.

Roofs are usually character defining elements.

It's not just their form, but the materials that go on on them.

The functional and decorative elements should be preserved rather than removed.

Roof features that are missing should be replaced and should be in keeping with the age and style of the house.

For example, we don't want to see we don't have too many overhanging eaves here.

That's not kind of a characteristic that's common in downtown Frederick.

So that's something we we want to make sure that we're not adding on to.

Sure.

Talking about the project.

Sure.

It should be in that packet right there.

Yeah, I have the picture in this.

Okay.

Gotcha.

Thank you.

Excellent.

And then a magical beading will focus and narrow it in for us.

So thank you.

Gotcha.

To our A B team.

So basically, there's a structural engineers report that talks about how the front wall basically was pushed out by the roof because it didn't have a ridge beam.

Can you move closer to the mic?

I'm a little right.

Thank you.

Sure.

So basically we're proposing to follow the engineer's plan where we first removed the pressure off the wall by removing the damaged roof.

And then from there we have masonry ties that are installed that are secure in the wall so that way it can't continue to get pushed out.

And we are proposing relaying bricks instead of repointing.

So basically we're proposing taking the wall apart from the top down in the damaged areas and then relaying them with mortar that would be approved for that work, basically.

And then the other part is the trim or I guess I don't know if you call it cornice trim for the front top of the wall.

Basically, strip the paint off and restore the trim to match its original form at the top of the wall, basically.

And that trim is bolted to the wall with ties that go, I think about six courses deep.

Okay.

Um you're laying a lot down.

Okay.

Can we take a little smaller bites of that?

Okay.

So you mentioned a structural engineer's report.

We don't have access to that.

So do you is that something you could add to the application?

Sure.

Okay.

That would be helpful.

Um so the written summary and paragraphs don't really define what the scope of of work is.

It's a little it is a little vague, okay.

Um a photograph with various circles were provided, but there weren't there aren't any company notes.

So um I'm not really able to assess the what work is tied to those circled areas.

Sure.

So in one moment.

Just a moment ago, you said that it was rebuilding, but not repointing.

And so what gives me a little bit of anxiety as somebody who's trying to read and understand this document and make make this part of a permit record, is that when you're saying that there's no repointing and you're showing areas that's almost the whole wall, are you taking this wall down?

Like how far, like how I'm I really would like a little bit of clarity on the it depends on uh the fractures that we find basically.

Um so the areas that are circled um are basically where if you look in the photo you can see that the wall is cracked in four areas.

Um it's cracked over the second story window right here.

It's cracked here.

And it's a little bit hard to tell with this photo, but basically if you were to look at the wall perpendicular, you would see that it's bowed out basically the wall in the middle is further out by about four inches as compared to the original sides of the wall.

So basically we're proposing relaying bricks in these areas mostly.

And then we're gonna relay the top of the wall, which you might not really see a whole lot of it because those four to six um four to six rows of bricks are basically behind this trim, basically the wall is actually taller than the trim.

Um we were basically initially gonna go down to the first um, believe it's called a header course, which is where they have bricks that are going sideways.

Instead of long ways, correct.

The short head is six or seven courses down is every header course on this wall.

And is that six or seven courses down from the cornice?

From from the behind the cornice.

Behind the cornice.

Okay.

So you probably I think the header course is visible.

I think it's like the second um the second uh row that's visible.

Okay, so right by where the between that and the stars.

Correct.

Okay.

And we were gonna repaint um once we're done with all the masonry repairs, the front wall as well.

So let me just ask this, uh and this is out of my own ignorance.

When you're going to lay the brick, you're going to point or put the mortar between the bricks just as now, yes?

We're gonna take the bricks up.

You're gonna take them up, but when you put them back, you're gonna put mortar between them.

Correct.

And replace it.

Yeah, we're gonna basically relay or you could almost call it rebuilding the wall basically as it was built.

Meaning.

Instead instead of just re-pointing because these cracks go all the way through the wall, you know.

Um the engineer and the masons recommend relaying that area basically because there's fractures all throughout that area, basically.

Like you can um take some of these bricks apart by hand basically right now.

Like, you can just take them apart, they're not really held together by anything.

Okay.

I have a question too, and I may have heard you maybe you may have said this, but I didn't hear it.

The roof collapsed because of the front wall bowed out, is that what happened?

The uh roof is what was putting pressure on the front wall.

The roof did not have a ridge beam.

So basically the roof was bowing down.

And it was pushing out the front wall out.

Okay.

So by removing the roof, we took the pressure off the wall.

And so the roof.

Correct.

Right.

Yes, so the new um roof is gonna have a ridge beam basically.

It's not gonna be visible.

It's basically we want to build the roof to look exactly the way it did.

Um, but with a ridge beam basically, um, so that way it can't put pressure on the wall and and stuff like that.

Right.

Okay.

So back uh regarding the wall, yeah.

The structural report, if you submit that, that would be very helpful.

And uh you mentioned Mason, you got a mason lined up to to do this work.

Um I guess Christina, I mean, uh I think we're past the point of trying to stabilize us.

This is almost an emergency uh due to the severe state of the cracking.

I mean what would it take to get something started as soon as possible versus waiting until the next hearing or so?

So the the challenge has been getting a a complete application.

So once we get a complete application, we we just want to process one this as quickly as possible.

Yes.

But uh I I guess the extent of the masonry needs our approval, or can that be staff level?

I'm hoping it can be staff level, but I'm not making any assessment without a complete a complete application.

So that's why we're here is is to have that conversation, try to get a complete application.

If we get a complete and clear application where I feel very comfortable that's it's within that administrative authority, I'll be glad to process this administratively.

You might not see this again.

So let me just ask this though for a complete application.

We're asking for the structural engineers report.

I think that would be helpful because it sounds like that it's including some information that we don't have access to.

And in alignment with the structural engineers report, a statement of work.

A statement of work that's clearer than what's there now.

So the statement of work is calling out reporting work, but reporting work apparently is not happening.

So that's one thing that we'll need to clarify on that.

Um absolutely.

And then tying that with the drawings, right?

So adding notes to the drawings.

So when you're talking about repo rebuilding walls, that it's called out in the drawing.

So do you have drawings now?

This is what I have.

These are pictures.

That's what I have.

Okay.

Do you have drawings?

I mean, I thought that the drawing was clear, but I can make additional drawings.

Drawings in addition to the pictures.

Correct.

Okay.

I think that would be helpful.

Okay.

Uh perhaps I uh again, I guess uh due uh to the essence, time is of an essence here, uh I feel.

Certainly the more photographs, the better word description you can provide, the scope of work.

The more details you should provide the the better.

Instead of just you know one photograph with some red lines on it.

Actually, you give me a you know uh detailed photographs as well as you know a description of the work proposed.

Yeah, I just thought that the photograph would be since we're trying to make it as close to what it was, basically, that it helps to see what it was basically.

But repointing versus repa rebuilding it are two different things, and that's not clear either in the scope of work or this photograph with circles.

And I also believe that there's work on happen on the side elevations.

Uh just a little bit, yeah.

There's um cracks basically at the top of the walls on each side on the side walls, the uh wall was starting to give way, meaning there's cracks on the sides going.

And that is that in the structural engineers report as well?

Um I'm not sure if he was aware of that, but we found that stuff basically because the I guess the because the wall bowed out the uh corners are too thin.

And basically because the wall bowed out, it actually started to damage the tooth joints.

Right, pulling it, pulling it away.

Yeah, so like the the bricks at the top, specifically it's like probably six to eight courses down.

Um basically there's this a zigzag crack on each side where the top of the wall was starting to peel away from the side walls, basically.

So we're gonna relay those areas as well.

In the statement of work, though, if you add that, then I think to staff's point, right?

You've got the structural engineers report, and you've got a statement of work that says I'm gonna do everything in this statement or the engineers report and these five things or whatever it happens to be.

Right.

Yeah, I mean the engineers report just talks about repairing dislodged bricks after the ties are in place and after the pressure is removed from the wall, basically.

Yeah, so that I don't it might not fully address what all this work that you're you're preparing.

I mean, he wasn't um I didn't even see those cracks until I you know you got into it.

So like it's hard to see them from you know below, basically.

Okay.

Um my next point in the staff report is is really addressing to this this concept that there was gonna be reporting work, but it does address um the type of mortar that's gonna be used.

I do think you're going to do be using a a line base.

I think you did note that.

Um so I would incourage you to include a couple more notes.

If not, it would have to be conditions that the mortar would have to match the profile of the existing mortar.

We don't want to be a sloppy mess.

We want it to look good.

Um the color texture and twirling.

I think I guess the main purpose then of being here is for the roof, probably more than the masonry.

It sounds like the masonry could be done at the staff level with the right documentation.

I'm it the whole thing could potentially be eligible for staff level review and just get in and out.

It's just getting this a complete application.

So we'll keep going point by point, get a better understanding, make sure we're on the same page.

Okay.

But it would be great if we can just get the complete application.

And if it's eligible for staff level review, I would just love to get this out the door, get your permit, start work.

Yeah, I'd I'd add that I think staff dialogue between you guys would be great.

You got some very aggressive language in your application about the kangaroo commission that I don't think is helpful at all.

Um I think a dialogue with staff is very reasonable.

We'll get you a lot further than uh lobbying hand grenades like this.

We've had conversations about that before.

And we're gonna we're gonna work through this one.

I I I do feel like I we there there were um preliminary reviews and comments back and forth.

We just weren't making any headway, so here we are at the commission keeping it um moving forward and and um get the ball rolling.

Christine, I have a question, and this could be for you as well.

I I'm just worried about the structural integrity in the short term here.

Yeah.

And whether or not the uh this engineers uh thinks they need to have some kind of outside support structural supports like we did on fifth fifth and market on the building there.

If if it does, that would have to be handled by the the building department because that's just a little bit of a lot of things.

I mean that's the ties are installed and they've been inspected by the engineer.

So the ties are what's keeping it in now.

Those stars that you see are and they go um six joists in.

It's just such a beautiful building, I just would hate to see it.

I know it happened in time.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a it's a concern.

So we we are eager for this one to get get moving.

Um I do know in the staff report that the areas of work are not clearly d documented with photographs.

The scope of work suggests that some work is play uh taking place on the side walls, but no image was provided.

I do think it's on both sides, or is it just the one?

It's on both sides.

Okay.

So make sure to provide photos with that nice clear notes to to identify the the areas of work.

Um the applicant is proposing to use um salvaged brick from the site, which I think is fantastic.

This is consistent with the guidelines.

Um but I do have some concerns, but given the potential scope of the project and the fact that we know that some bricks are damaged and cracked and can't be used.

Um I just want to make sure that any new brick will match the size, texture, and color of the historic masonry.

Older buildings have different sized bricks.

So I have um so this house has an addition and the original um wall from the original house is still intact, and basically um I've already encountered a few bricks, not that many, but a few bricks that were damaged.

Um I'm just taking bricks from the top of that wall, which is actually inside the house, so it's not an exterior wall anymore.

Okay.

So basically, I'm planning on taking bricks that are used to build the house, basically.

But just are a part of walls, they're no longer exterior walls.

Okay.

Is it the same brick or you mentioned it was an additional?

Okay, so it's the same size, same color, same texture.

The original house was all built with the same brick.

Um but there's an addition that's built, and the addition has different brick.

Got it.

It's a slightly different brick that they used for that addition.

But this is the original back wall of the house, which is now enclosed by an addition, so it's not an exterior wall.

You can't see it from the outside.

So basically, we're taking any additional bricks from that wall.

I think that's a great plan.

To uh fix anything that we can't um fix otherwise.

And I guess Christina uh if additional bricks were needed, even if they weren't exact, I guess you could use them on the interior part of um design.

Multi-worth wall and save the more exact brick for the face, the exterior face, and use uh I'm fine with that condition, yeah.

But ideally it would be nice to have them all the same size and water throughout, even on the backup.

The bricks that I'm talking about are the same size.

They all are like four and a half inches wide um or so.

So the scopa work states that windows will be reinstated.

What elevation does this reference?

Because you are circling areas where windows are on the front elevation, but I think you might be talking about the side elevation.

There's two attic windows that um one of them we never removed, but um the one on the left side, um this side.

West side, yeah.

Yeah.

We just need to put that window back in exactly where it was.

Um, yeah, we have the window, yes.

Um and then these two windows, um basically these um so it's a little bit hard to tell, but basically there's actually a whole chunk of brick here that is completely dislodged, meaning not just this crack, there's actually another crack that's going right next to the star.

It's a little hard to see.

Basically, this is all sitting on the window frame.

So when we relay this, we're actually gonna take this whole window out because the problem is that the frame is like a parallelogram now because there's all this weight sitting on this side of the window.

And basically the sashes don't line up right now.

So basically we're proposing to take window frame out, relay basically relay this.

This is like a um an arch, basically.

So have the masons relay the arch and then reinstall the window um and hopefully.

The same window that you have right there.

You're just setting it aside long enough to make the repair and then put it back.

We've already recently restored all these windows.

We've already uh excellent um what do you call it?

Um put new uh reglazed.

Yeah, reglazed, yep, that's the right word.

Yeah.

Um just uh just add to that.

I mean uh include all that in your scope of work.

I mean, write it as if you're trying to explain it to a fifth grader.

No offense to Miss Martkowski.

The more the more you can detail every little aspect of it, it just makes uh helps us and and the staff uh understand exactly what's going on.

So are those the two windows?

It's the the top left and then the one near it on the side elevation on the west elevation.

Are they the the two windows that you're speaking of?

Yeah.

Um there's no I don't think there's really any issues with the bottom windows.

Okay.

Um there is a s I mean I don't think that it really affects anything, but this is actually um bowed down.

Um we but we actually already have this window out because we've been restoring it and we're gonna put it back in, but we have not put this window back in because we're gonna relay this first because this is all sitting on this, and basically it doesn't fit back into the opening properly, and we're hoping that we can make it fit once we remove the pressure from the dislodge bricks off of that.

And we intend to, you know, do what it takes to make it fit again.

Um I mean uh it also helps to kind of label everything if you label the windows, you know, ABC or one, two, three, and you can say window A, you know, is gonna be removed.

It's gonna be a temporary plywood infill to protect the opening and relay the masonry and then the windows could be you know repaired if it needs to be and then reinstalled.

So just uh a detailed aspect of if you label each window, we know exactly which window you're talking about.

So as well as any other openings.

Okay, just taking some notes.

Um just two windows, maybe three windows, maybe we need to acknowledge that third window, the one the transom above the door is going to be reinstated too.

Just to make that clear.

It actually, I know it's hard to tell, but it's actually not installed right now.

Okay.

Um it's just plastic over it for now.

But we intend to reinstall the original window.

Good plan.

Let's just, you know, add that to the scopa work and and note that in the the photographs.

And I don't know if we necessarily need drawings.

We just need really clear marked up photographs with the the notes.

If you want to include drawings, that's even more fantastic.

But we can work with this as long as it's it's clear and it has some notes.

Okay.

Um is masonry repairs planned behind and below the second story cornice.

I think you already addressed that.

You're taking six um the reason why we circled um down to the uh the middle of the second story windows is potentially as the worst case we could take the wall down to that level and relay it down depending on you know how much damage we find because basically the way we've fixed um issues in the past is we you know tear the wall down until we find that it's relatively solid again if we find that it's not solid then we might potentially go down as far as you know the tops of those second story windows or so.

Okay.

So that's why we have that circled we're hoping that we don't have to do that but you know if if we find that it's still fractured and not solid then we have to keep you know tearing it down until we have solid wall to build off of basically if things keep escalating you're gonna have to just keep updating your HPC approvals and keeping us updated on like okay this is this is the plan and and make sure and again you know staff's willing to work with you just have to keep us informed.

Is there any chance on this on the right hand side of this first elevation that you would take take the wall down all the way to the first story window.

I'm talking about here I don't think this these areas are pretty solid okay they appear pretty solid and on the inside of this wall um it appears that they already kind of um knew about some of this damage and basically it's actually a three width brick wall starting right at the second floor level.

And then goes to two on the second yeah so we don't really intend on relaying only these areas because basically it cracked in the easiest place for it to crack which is right where the windows are and so I think that the wall is basically solid in the middle solid on the sides and cracked all the way down through that those areas so basically if we relay these areas it should be one solid wall again.

Okay we believe.

And one important aspect is and I don't know if I I covered this in the staff report is that when you relay the brick I I don't have a detailed photograph of the the brick coursing but based on your comments earlier I'm assuming it's an American or a common bond where you have six maybe seven rows of the stretcher brick and then you have a a a row of the header.

Yeah that's exactly what it is like six or seven rows.

So headers just we want to make sure that's replicated because that's that's just like that's Frederick right that type of brick work um perfect perfect the application notes window features will be reinstated and that the lintel will be salvaged and reused.

I think you're talking about that side elevation because there's no lintels on this elevation.

I don't think there's any rotted lintels anywhere so we're not proposing uh replacing anything we're just gonna reuse the existing wood basically everywhere we can including the cornice and the trim at the top of the wall I think this is going off my memory that there are only lintels on the side elevation.

There's lintels on those um front windows too there's I see jack archives there's there's a there's a lintel up here.

It's so it's it's not a structural lintel the masonry has it there's an arch in the masonry but there's just it's like a wood filler basically because it matches the art so it's like a round piece of wood.

So like the window is rectangular there's another piece of wood you I don't know what we really want to call it lintel or it's I wouldn't call it a lintel but I I see what you're saying.

It's some kind of filler and we intend on reusing that wood it's not rotted or damaged and we want to reuse it basically.

Okay.

But it will be if we remove the window we have to remove that piece of wood as well and reinstall it um can we talk about the chimney?

Sure.

Okay.

I think there's two that's under review.

I think the smaller issue is the one on the right is that fair the the the least problematic one is the chimney on the right.

I guess so yeah you could say that so what's what's going on with with that chimney?

Um but we basically um we have relay um part of the chimney in order to make sure that sound to be able to support the ridge beam basically.

Okay.

So your scope of work only addresses one chimney, and I think it's the one on the left.

So keeping to the one on the right, the east elevation.

You mentioned that some of it's gonna be rebuilt.

Is it just to the roof line up?

Basically, yeah.

Okay.

All right.

Make sure that the scoop of work addresses that.

Okay.

Um is the work already done?

Okay.

But it's underneath the roof, right?

So anything above the roof.

But it's not, right?

It's not above the roof.

It's inside the roof.

Both it's both.

Okay.

I stand corrected.

So just let us know.

Well, you know, that that side photograph is what we'd really need, and then the marked up photo showing kind of the extent of the the rebuild.

That's all.

Um chimney on the west, the left-hand side.

Now that was also rebuilt, but when it was rebuilt, it wasn't built within the wall structure.

It wasn't too thin.

It's like an independent structure.

The plan is, I believe, is a tooth at back into that wall and rebuild it.

Is that fair?

Okay.

Neither of these chimneys are functional or are they?

Um the one on the right used to be um this one used to be, but it's not functional anymore because of the ridge beam.

Are you just gonna cap it then?

Yeah.

Add that to your skip away.

Um it's not gonna, it's just like a um masonry fill type cap where it's just topped off basically.

It's like a is it have like a little slope to it, or is it just like a couple of things?

No, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's just like fill solid filled basically at the top.

Yeah.

Just add that as a note.

That's that's fine.

Um sometimes people put like this um waterproof membrane on it.

Let us know if that's the plan.

I mean, I might consider it.

Okay.

Uh you know, the the biggest concern, I guess, for the long-term stability of the roof is to not have the ridge beam get damaged by moisture.

It's kind of hard to see it basically once everything's closed in.

So we kind of want to protect the ridge beam so that it doesn't get damaged through moisture coming through the chimney.

Because when this was open, it there was moisture that came down, you know, when it rained and stuff.

That's right, yeah.

So we're trying to avoid that now.

Yeah, capping that I think would be the way to go.

Correct.

Do you have any other clear comments about the chimney that you want to share now?

Uh is that the full scope of work for for them?

Um the other part is we're gonna replace the gutter on the front when we do the uh Can it be around profile?

Yeah.

Perfect.

If you can add that.

Um just make sure that the area is known that in your scope of work that's just limited to the front that works.

Structural pens.

I'm pretty positive that they're they're the ones that the ones that you're in asking for the scope of work, they're already there.

Is that correct?

All right.

They're already installed, yeah.

We're so close to done.

The roof.

Well, those structural pins remain there permanently?

Yes.

Even after everything's completed.

Um we might temporarily remove one at a time when we're relaying brick, um, but they're gonna basically stay there.

Most like we might take this one out temporarily when we relay this, but we're gonna leave the rest of them in in place, and then if we decide we if we end up going down below this level, that would be the only reason why we would remove them, but we would reinstall them when we get to that level if we did um relay um down below that level.

Um these are gonna remain in place permanently.

So with that, we would just on this photograph or a similar photograph, just add that note.

These are the you know, the structural pins.

Um that would be sufficient.

All right, the roof.

The scope of work is not clearly defining the reconstruction the reconstruction of the roof structure, the area of the work or efforts to preserve the or reinstating the character defining features.

If work is taking place on the side elevations with a rake boards being re reinstated.

Yes, right.

Yes.

Non-pressure treated wood.

Okay.

Painted.

Perfect.

The historic appearance should be replicated, a clarified scope of work with the company and photographs with notes that are needed.

A full assessment cannot be made at this time.

So basically all I'm asking for is additional photographs with a couple notes with it.

Um I want to just make sure that the roof replicates what was there previously.

I don't want any funky overhangs that are just not consistent with this type of building.

Um the roof was previously asphalt shingles, which is hard to see because of the angle of this roof.

But it had asphalt shingles.

The applicant's now proposing standing seam roof.

No product led to was provided.

So make sure you you give me that product literature.

Um I mean, all I know is there's a company in Smithsburg that I think is called ridgetop roofing LLC.

Okay.

And I was probably planning on purchasing from them.

Coordinate with them to see what manufacture they use for the code.

I think they manufacture it themselves.

They do it themselves.

Yeah.

I've seen I've been to their facility.

I've installed a couple of um.

Okay.

Actually, it wasn't stained seam, it was the type with fasteners instead of stained seam.

But we wanted to do stained seam for this roof.

Um I think that that concept is good.

Um if they are I I did not know that there was a local company that still did that.

Um last time I heard it was like 2012, the last time the the last time I I've seen it a local.

I think it's an omniscient company and they have the rolls, they just have big rolls of metal and they form it on the spot.

Okay.

So if you can send a photograph I don't think they're gonna have a website for you for you to look.

I mean, we can also design I think it's we can be designed to be what we want, basically.

So if if you have design that you want to incorporate, then we'll start with that design.

They're like, I I think um I mean your I mean you I have a handform standing seam roof that I installed a couple years ago.

There's a description of the material that they're gonna use, and I think that's probably what staff is looking for.

That would be helpful.

They they don't actually do create the steel in-house, they buy it somewhere.

So what I'm looking for is to make sure that the panels are flat and doesn't have a crimp in them, which is something that you see more on industrial or institutional um secondary resources.

So I want to look for that flat panel and I want to look at the seam height, make sure that it's not weird, like wonder one inch, one and a half inch is probably the normal range.

I mean I have a a hand roll seamer tool that I was gonna use.

I believe that it's like around an inch or so.

Perfect.

So yeah, I'm not gonna use the uh power seamer or anything like that.

Okay.

So yeah, that's what I'm looking for.

I'm looking for a flat.

Okay.

And it kind of just crimps it.

Um so looking for a flat seam or a flat panel, an inch seam.

And if you're gonna paint it, paint it, you can paint it whatever colored, but if it has a pre-finished color, just keep in mind, right, green, galvanized.

But how you wrote in your staff, your application was actually fine.

That the plan is to paint it white.

We don't review that uh the color.

So um that's it for that.

Um didn't you mention something about the ridge?

Yeah, I want I want a rolled ridge rather than the cap, which is a more modern.

If you look at the neighbor to the left, that's that you're I think you're familiar.

That's that traditional rolled ridge.

Okay.

The panels are not appropriate.

It has a core muted.

That's right.

Don't look at the seam on it.

So the roof is good.

Yeah.

But the the ridge part is actually good.

Everything else is a little off.

Um that roof actually is original.

It's just been painted basically many times.

Well wait, say this again.

That roof on the left is is original.

It's actually almost needs to be replaced because it's starting to peel up in some places, but he's not gonna do anything about it for a long time.

No.

Well, um and then right now we don't really have any plans for the corners other than you're taking it down.

You're going to assess it.

If there's any major replacements, we just you need to come back and let us know what it is.

Yeah, I don't think that there's any replacement of any major pieces of wood or anything like that.

Um it looks like it's in pretty good shape, just has alligator cracks on the paint, so probably do a similar process that we did with the windows and uh maybe take a heat gun to it, strip the paint off and then repaint it.

Okay.

So that that's really I think unless you have something new.

Um I I think that's it.

And if we can just get the cleaned up scope of work.

Some cleaned up photographs with notes, including the side elevation.

I think we'll be in good shape.

Does your engineer have any details or as far as the sizing and spacing of the rafters required and the size of the ridge beam and um there's already a permit that is uh where he has um sealed plants that uh propose two by tens, and we already have the he proposed a triple um two by fourteen LVL um assembly for the ridge beam.

Um and that's all on a permit that's already permitted, basically.

Um I don't think it's on the 2025 permit.

I don't think this roof structure has yet received HPC approval or a permit.

Yeah, we're not talking about HPC, we're talking about the sealed plans, the engineers plans are on a permit that is already issued.

There is an yeah it in any case that kind of structural element is is kind of beyond our scope of work.

We're just gonna be real careful that it matches the the um historic design.

All right.

Um is so the resubmission deadline is is Monday.

Is that something you can accommodate?

And I just really want a nice, clean, complete, beautifully organized application.

I think it's I think just a couple photographs and a couple uh clarify skip of work, include that structural engineers report it and um uh some more details on the roofy material.

Do you need anything else for me to get going?

I think that's good.

All right, submit that through open gov and we're all set.

Okay.

All right.

Thank you very much.

Thanks, Mr.

Newman.

Do you mean to give this back to you?

Yeah, I can just say that.

Okay, thank you.

And our final case for the node, uh HPC 26-43, 153 West Patrick Street.

Uh that is Mr.

Masser.

But we'll wait if uh applicants want to come up forward.

Whoever wishes to speak.

Cool.

Thank you.

And you two were sworn in earlier.

Yes.

If I recall.

If you just want to state your names for the record.

David Mussolino.

Nice to meet you all.

I'm Brennan Gaminer.

Mr.

Masser.

All right.

Well, thank you guys for sticking with us all the way to the end.

Um we should get prizes.

Yeah, right.

We should really have like something, something to give out.

Some sort of award.

Yeah.

Um this application concerns the applicant's proposal to paint previously unpainted masonry on the rear section of the building, alter existing historic windows by adding double pane insulated glass, widen the existing side entrance to accommodate new double leaf wooden doors, and replace the current uh sidewalk to provide ADA access from the rear parking lot.

Um So I figured since we've been talking about masonry a lot, uh I figure that's a good place to start.

Actually, I'll I'll go ahead and do a little bit of um history about the building just real quick.

Um the commercial building at 153 West Patrick Street was constructed in three different sections.

The front portion dates to approximately 1885.

The middle section was added between 1904 and 1911, and the rear portion was built around 1930.

Uh for more than 50 years, the building was occupied by gem laundry.

Um the original structure is a one-story brick building facing West Patrick Street.

Its upper facade features inset panels, dental brickwork, and in the center panel and two large storefront windows and a denticulated cornice.

The one-story middle edition is also constructed of brick, while the rear section consists of concrete blocks with brick lintels and sills.

Um in the 2021 National Register update, the property at 153 West Patrick Street is recognized as a contributing resource.

Um so onto the masonry.

Yeah, we we definitely we agree that the paint won't assist in stabilizing.

But we did find that not this side, but the opposite side of the building had some sort of some level of paint on it previously.

So I don't know if you but it's on these two panels here.

There was some level of paint, and um Brendan actually power washed probably a year ago or maybe less than that.

And so just wash them up.

Soft wash.

Yeah, right.

But it there is a level, and we took some pictures today, so you can't really see them.

But there on that um there was some level of paint on these side of the building at least.

So we wanted to continue that paint down each side of the building and then across the back of the building and just bring it all to the you know a white finish and clean clean it up.

Um Josh.

Josh, is it correct that this would be um the 1930s era of construction?

Yes, that's correct.

Okay.

The back of the building?

Yes, yeah, that rear section.

Yeah, we thought that that possibly was somewhere later than that from this point on was a addition.

Based on sandborne maps, it appears to be the 1930s section.

We also believe it could be that the brick on the back looks to be in the last 30 or 40 years as a new facade.

We believe that this was a loading dock on the laundry.

Gotcha.

And so they put just this brick on the back later on when they closed up the loading dock.

And there was some pictures that show some changes that happened back there.

Okay.

Yeah, this we think this brick um or this uh the split face, well, it's not really split face, but this continues behind the the masonry there.

Right.

Okay.

Oh.

And you know, this is also the back of the building.

So we're the you know, the front side of the building has already been painted, three-quarters down each side is painted.

So we wanted to continue the paint along the back, you know, back parking lot portion of the building.

So the guidelines say don't.

It is at the butt considerations are that it's at the rear.

It's the not the most historic or oldest part of the um building, and that there are signs that at least portions of this area was previously painted.

So if that's a it would it would be a deviation, but I think um some comments from the commission would be helpful to kind of gear what where you guys are thinking, or if you have any questions.

I think my comment being the back of the building, it's not going to affect the uh streetscape.

So I don't think it's going to affect the building.

My comment is that the building will look better if it's all painted instead of half and half.

I'm generally opposed to painting unpainted masonry.

Um it does cause water issues in a maintenance cycle.

And I don't know if it's more just the color kind of stark white.

I don't know if there's options for consideration on that, even though it's not our purview.

Um yeah, we're we're completely flexible.

It's really more about painting the as you see in the front, um the brick is peeling, and we we risk really want to make it look better overall.

Um since an old building, looks like it hasn't really been taken care of in a long time, and you know, so we want to make it look nice, and uh, you know, then we found some of those old splotches of paint on the masonry in the back, and uh so then really it's just about can we paint that that brick to just make it look the same all the way around in a in a rear facing non-street facing area?

I guess to be a little antagonistic.

I guess the opposite could be true.

You could uh peel off the paint on the front to match the back, but that's an extensive amount of work, but that might also damage the brick, it's a lot older in the front.

It's a lot older in the front.

The brick is very old in the front and it's it's been deteriorating a little bit, so we want to be very careful with that.

I do feel that if the um painting is allowed and the entire building is um painted white the character of the entire building as a historic building will be modified.

It will look considerably more like a sleek modern white building.

Although it may not be visible from the street.

For anyone passing by the building, uh to not realize that it is a white building, a large white building of a fairly uniform character.

The uniform created by the paint.

It is visible from a public way on the on the west side from the Carroll Creek Park, but at least uh a portion of the rear portion.

If it helps, we plan on painting the front facade a different color.

This would remain the same, and then this front would be a an accent color, if you will, and then down each side would be the white, and actually in this back portion of this edge of the building, you can see blocks almost all visibility from the street side.

Because that portion of the building bumps out, and we would leave this unpainted or as is conditioned.

So now I've gotten confused.

I'm sorry.

You were not gonna paint this.

Oh, not this side.

Just this portion of the building that but juts out.

We're only starting here.

Oh, but that's already painted.

We wouldn't even already be.

Right.

This wouldn't be a concern, but we would just continue the paint down the side.

All right, but from the park where we can see it on foot.

Right.

We're gonna see that as white.

It's gonna be stark white when we're on foot.

Correct.

You would see welcome.

Yeah.

Do you own the building?

Uh looking at the front elevation.

Do you have the the red building to the left side?

No.

No.

No.

No.

Okay.

We'll be in here next week.

Yeah.

It that is painted though.

Yeah.

Can I say something about the colors?

Yeah.

This is Kathy.

She's another owner.

If you come forward and introduce yourself, you you can bring up a chair if you want to stay permanent till the end.

There's another microphone there.

You could probably use on the that desk there.

If you could just uh introduce yourself for the record.

I'm Kathy Troxel, I'm a co-owner of the building.

Um I hear what you're saying about the stark white, and um that color is there I I'm I was an art major, so I know there's a lot of different kinds of white, but when you're doing a representation on a photograph, it just looks white like bond paper.

And it's not gonna look like that.

I don't I don't want it to.

I want it to look um s very soft white.

And um, you know, for people who care a lot about color like I do, it's really important to get the right white.

So black and white, like tile, no, that's not what we're going for.

But a very clean soft white that makes it look very clean and having the window trim dark, and again, even with black, it's not pitch black, it's more like a um pepper.

I I don't know, like you you know, Charleston dark Charleston green is looks black.

So something along those lines in order to get the color exactly right.

So we haven't um I don't want you to get the impression that we're trying to go modern because we absolutely are not, and I'm really aware of colors.

So I understand you.

I just wanted to say that because I was like, no, it's not gonna look like that.

So anyways, I hope that's how much you compare it to that color that's existing.

Well that's more of a yellow when you when you're outside, it's really yellow, and you know, I think we're gonna update it a little bit.

It won't be yellowish cream, but it will be a soft white.

Um I mean, there's probably a hundred whites we could pick from.

And and I I do want to just kind of reinstate like what what the commission's review is.

We can't dictate or tell you what color what what paint color it is.

So if you want that stark white, re really the commission can't say anything otherwise.

But but the really the area of review is can is the commission supportive of painting on the unpainted masonry.

Which matters.

Yeah.

And if it's going to look like a modern uh plastic white building, you might be leaning towards no.

Um and I understand that because I wouldn't want it to look like that either.

But if it's a soft white, tastefully done with with nice um flower boxes on the sidewalk and things like that.

I think that might, I hope that might make you see it a little bit differently.

Because it's not attractive at all right now.

It's really not at all.

Maybe the front isn't, but I would offer to you that the sides are.

Right.

The sides, at least on the Carol Creek side.

And I know I say this every meeting, I'm on foot a lot.

So I see the city um from that perspective as opposed to from a vehicle.

And other than the peeling paint, it's not it's not terribly unattractive because it what it says to me is it's an old building.

And I happen to love old buildings.

So it's it's not nearly as bad as you think it is.

Yeah.

Can I ask on uh Christina your point about this here?

Uh so with with regards to reviewing unpainted versus painted, we do believe that this it has already been painted.

So we we would count that as painted.

Okay.

So are we allowed to go ahead and paint this kinds of things here?

We'll see you tomorrow morning.

Okay with the paintbrush.

Yeah, you can't do that.

And if we find other splots, we didn't do a thorough and exhaustive.

This was just recently.

We was sort of like, oh, we didn't notice that.

Actually, parking to come in here is when we notice this.

Right there.

Right.

And so we we parked there and we walked over.

And just on our way.

You're like, oh, there's paint.

It was like, wait a minute, how can we never saw this before?

So this wasn't part of our submission.

And we just took a couple brief pictures, but if we find other splotches of paint on this, even if it's light like this, can we end on that creek facing side?

Is that something that we're allowed to paint?

I would ask for some photographs.

And and this is this image is really helpful, but I I have no idea where it's located.

So something with a little bit more context to go, oh yes, okay.

And and then you don't need to have it on your application at all.

Like if it's already painted, then anyway.

I think that whole brick area at the very back has not been painted.

Yeah, it is not.

There's no splotches.

And really, after coming and seeing this, we thought to ourselves, well if this is already painted on both sides in little amounts, and we could see that now, then really what we're just asking for is can the brick in the back be painted.

And can we go back to that photograph of the the brick?

Because uh something you said earlier just bring really true that there was a loading dock back there.

And this does look read to me like a 1960s.

It's like the 70s when they closed the building off to make it in office.

When on the interesting thing about the inside when we um took out the old walls and all the stuff that was in there, there are um steel beams running across on the inside, and in the very back there were winches, like uh.

And I'm not a construction person, but I did notice it, so guys, you know, but there were like winches that look like a pulley system.

Yeah.

And I said, wait, and then you could see the cinder block, if that's what it's called, like on the back part, there was cinder block, and it looked like there was like a um uh some kind of concrete slab there, and I was like, this had to be uh where they pulled up and and they had a winch system to pull the laundry off.

I mean, that's all I can think of.

It had to be something like that.

And then when I think it was Love and Associates um closed this building in in the s actually early 80s when they they took they took that back.

I think that's when that back part was added.

Because I think whatever was there before had to be added, and I'm still looking for photos.

I haven't been able to find any, but I think Josh, you might want to um do it a little bit more digging on this rear elevation.

There is this uh a caveat on the the guidelines about non-historic walls being allowed to be painted for aesthetic purposes.

So we step by step, we're just kind of expanding like the area where it might be appropriate to paint this.

I had asked Sarah.

Um she and I had gone through some of this stuff and walked the site, and she did some digging for pictures and only found the front side with the name and I I think maybe one from the creekside, but I don't even think she found that.

It was I I don't remember finding anything.

I can uh check the maps again and see if there's any indication of a door there.

The the 1960s sandborn paired with some um early 80s um aerials might give some clues.

Yeah.

But yeah, I'm very suspicious.

I I don't know if that's a very historic wall.

No.

And then a neighbor.

A neighbor that is in this area had told you that she remembers it being installed.

No way.

Yeah.

And she's actually somebody across the street here.

I'm I was supposed to meet her, but she got sick, so I'm trying to get with her, and she said, I think I have buckets of photos.

I'm like, okay.

All right.

So I don't know if we have a uh 100% clear guidance on this yet, but I think you're gonna dig around a little bit more, investigate what's painted and what's not, and maybe narrow the the request.

And Josh is going to follow up with a little bit more research if you have some photographs, that would be fabulous.

And if that's a non-historic wall, then maybe it's you know um changing it for aesthetic purposes is really okay.

Good.

Thank you.

So and just to be clear about that, how do we proceed if we do find splotches of paint on the masonry?

Is that something because it's been painted?

We just now the brick I'm not talking about.

I'm just talking about the sides.

Right.

If you could send uh do you have Josh's email?

I can provide that to you.

Okay, yeah.

Um shoot us a couple photographs again close enough to see what you're seeing paint wise, but far enough to give us a context.

Just saying, hey, this is kind of where we're finding that this is where you know we're just looking to repaint.

Um that could just give him a little bit of information to give you guidance because really at that point we're just updating the application to very specifically address areas that are not currently painted.

Right.

And then we'll be in good shape.

It's a financial services company.

Okay.

And just for what it's worth, we are spending a lot of time trying to keep and preserve the original character of the building inside, and it's really uh some neat old brick, and you can see a lot of really cool character.

So, you know, when it's all done, we're gonna have a chamber of commerce, and we'd invite you to come check it out.

And there's uh um some nice old wood beams and really interesting character to the inside of the building that we tried our best to keep that and preserve it throughout.

They have some old photographs you found.

Well, a couple of something like one.

Oh yeah, I like the big on masonry.

All right.

Uh moving on with the windows.

Uh the applicant is proposing to install double-paned Argon filled glass and existing windows along the middle and rear sections.

Um per the guidelines, historic glass must be retained unless it is cracked or broken.

Um the applicant notes that the proposed work is only to replace the panes.

Uh all of the other components of the windows will remain.

Um I think we just need a little bit of more information on how that's going to be done.

Yeah, so we are keeping every piece of the window intact.

So anything that's the iron, anything that's there, we're trying to keep every piece of it intact.

They're all square and they're in disarray, they're gonna need to be cleaned up.

Every bit of the um glazing is failing on the inside.

I actually brought some of it with me just to see how poorly it was it's it's done.

And we brought um an actual piece of the glass that's in there.

It's there's no waviness to it.

So there is really no his in my opinion, historic kind of nature of the glass that would have wavy um if it was wavy, we wouldn't be talking about it.

Sure.

But this is just I mean, it it might as well be plusy glass.

And every time we took out one piece of uh of the um glazing, we're cracking windows.

So every single piece is cracking, it's chipping.

Um eventually we're gonna replace half of the glass anyway.

Um our request is to replace it with insulated uh double insulated glass.

But how do you do that without like what it seems like such an extreme and costly measure when you can just add an interior storm get the same result?

Um giant old warehouse building that actually it's a giant old warehouse building that's right along 95 call called Montgomery Park, and it had the metal frame windows, and they put throughout um uh insulated glass, it's like that thick, and the the metal frame would probably accept it.

Um that's a very environmentally good product, and it's clear.

Um it goes into the metal frames easily.

Um we did a I did a test fit um of a piece of the glass, and it fits.

We have almost three quarters of an inch, if not more, and the insulated glass is is significantly less than that.

So this is internally glazed, so you won't see any of the glazing on the in outside of the window.

All of the glazing occurs inside.

So these pieces would just sit flush inside this metal frame.

Well, we'll restore the frame, we'll remove the rust, protect it, re refinish it, and then set the glass inside.

All of them would be custom cut to fit inside each pane.

Most of them are all the same size anyhow.

So they would fit tight, and then we'd glaze on the inside.

And yeah, they do they fit um, like you said, we're only it's it's that kind of product.

Yeah, that's interesting.

And this is clear, there's no tint to it.

Um so there would be almost zero uh visibility from the outside that it would change the look of the glass.

Or the look of the from the street side from the walking path.

Um I actually had set them a couple pictures next to each other.

Right, you know.

This is helpful.

Virtually identical.

This one's uh, I mean, you can see this one's cracked.

We probably every every window on the product or on the space has at least one crack or one chip somewhere, and we're gonna break two or three of them on each pane every time we're trying to take it out.

Okay.

I've had discussions with what windows.

This is my first metal window doing this.

No, maybe it's better that way.

My sense is it doesn't attract from the metal frames at all.

I mean, it goes fits in perfectly.

Um it's a great energy saver.

It's an interesting because it's very it's an insular product.

Um my question is about the pins and glazing.

You still glaze it on the outside?

We would set um a sealer in here behind the frame.

Okay.

And then that would set in tight.

Now there were pins holding these singular panes in.

Um we're gonna break every one of those taking them out.

Okay.

So I think my question being is that this new window has that black line around it.

The frame is gonna be painted black, so we're not gonna notice it as much.

Correct.

You won't notice that.

That's actually this is because I couldn't get it in any further.

It sets tight in this black is just because it's uh sample.

Yeah, it's just the sample.

So it would hide in behind each one of these frames.

And at the bottom as well?

Yes.

All four sides.

You can see this one was not tall enough.

Okay, fairly.

I'm just I'm so curious.

You're also gonna lose a little bit of the glass space.

Um, so the windows are gonna appear smaller.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Because if the glass, the old glass is filling the whole thing where you're gonna lose a little bit here.

I don't think so.

Because this is shaped um, so I could do it's more like uh we're not changing the window.

It'll be the whole, it'll be the whole space.

So when we bring that window glazing in, it'll come into here.

Got it.

Just like that singular piece was here.

Yep.

We'll be here.

You got it.

All right.

Thank you.

Is your aim to keep the operable portion at least operable, even though it may be closed full time or are you permanently sealing it?

This guy wants me to make them all operable, so we'll I like that guy.

We got one uh I mean they'll never be open, probably if it's conditioned.

I got one of them to open.

Um I told you they would like that.

Fresh air is important.

Yes, that's so true.

Sick buildings are a real thing.

When you work inside an office for eight to nine to ten hours, and you don't get fresh air, it's great on a nice data, and and we even told the mechanical people.

And and we even told the mechanical people.

Yeah.

Right.

And is this only proposed for the the metal windows or the in other front wood windows?

Yeah, the two storefront windows would be left untouched.

They're just gonna be refinished with the outside.

The glazing stays in the same, and then the side windows um like this one would just be re-refinished.

So we're just gonna repaint this outside.

This glazing's in disarray.

We have Anthony Owens lined up to take care of this.

You know, he does most of them in Frederick.

Um re-re any, I think we only have two or three pieces of glass that are broken along here.

It's still not uh wavy, it's still regular glass, but we'll we'll replace the ones that are broken and then repaint.

Thanks for your explanation and that it bringing a sample in for the metal glass.

I think that was just very helpful.

So thank you.

Speaking again to the um place character of the building and its place in the history of Frederick.

I moved again at the dates.

I won't address the section, the front section that was built in 1885.

That would take a little more thought, but certainly the the section was built in 1904 and 1911.

And then the addition would be argued by you know an architecture critic.

But there was definitely a feel for the modern age in those sections of the building.

Um whether it was designed or just intuitive.

Um 30, certainly, but also by the 1904 and 1911, particularly in particular, but increasingly in the US there was an inclination for the same our four fathers would wanted us to do this.

Well, we may once again be reflecting in a building, the the emoji of business and industry and commercial property in its very plentiful and active structural um building um history.

So you have you may have a unique example, but I'm not drawing that conclusion.

Well, when we originally set out and Christina met with Forrest with uh with Bates and uh we talked about these windows, our first gut reaction was we'd hate the windows, we want to replace them.

And then after on further analysis, we we looked at them and we actually came to love the windows, and so really what we're setting out here is to try to, even though you're saying we could just call it a day with a piece of plexiglass, we we really want to take a lot of time to fix and correct the metal frame, and to do that, we have to go through this process of taking away all those panes.

And so we really wanted to preemptively get a blessing because we're gonna embark on this big process and probably gonna break a bunch of glass, but I think ultimately the result is that we're gonna have the exact replica of the original window.

It's interesting.

Portive of the insulated glass, certainly if it fits within the existing frame.

So I I don't really have any issues of replacing it with the insulated glasses.

And those photos are newer, right?

The the detailed ones of the it like a temporary install.

These ones, yeah, these ones are uh the newer ones.

Would you mind including those into the packet?

I think those are very informative and should be part of the record.

All right.

Was there anything else?

Uh yes.

Uh so on to the uh the door and entrances.

Um so applicants proposing to remove the existing single side door, widen the existing entrance and install a new mahogany double leaf door as per the guidelines.

Entrances can be returned to their original configuration and detailing if there is documentary or physical evidence to support such changes.

Additionally, the guidelines state if the original door no longer exists, the new door must be compatible with the period and style of the building.

Um the applicant documents uh with an interior photo that the area surrounding the side door appears to have been altered and um previously accommodated double leaf doors.

Um so I don't know if you want to talk about that a little bit and sort of the the space that uh is already there.

Yeah, we just want to take this singular door.

This is their main entrance.

It's this one's the front the break room but this is the front door the side door it's going to be their main entrance it ties in with our other portion of the application to regrade this to get it to ADA accessibility into this door.

We already have to flip this door around it was part of the previous HBC approval.

That's not going to be easy to flip the door with the size and the way these were constructed.

We're going to make it work on the other portions of the building but we want to replace this single door and bring it back to um what we found was um there had to have been a double door here at some point.

This major opening was here um this is all old masonry above and then it's infilled with CMU.

So this was one of the things I really wanted to find a photograph of to see what it was and we couldn't you know find something but there was something here there was a larger opening this is not a historic door well it's got portions of history to it but it's not an old door.

We want to replace it with a you know a door similar to this one okay transom would stay remain um and then the panes of glass I think this is a six uh seven foot door ours would end up being eight with a twelve 12 inch transom okay um I believe you have a rendering of what that would look like yeah just ignore the the canopy no canopy listen all right and make sure that that's removed from the your final submission or mark it up that's not part of the application.

Yeah we we will come back at some point for signage um but at this juncture we're we're not okay um moving forward to the sign.

So this would be the similar door and this is um the new sidewalk that would run flush uh it's gonna be slightly different it will run all the way back to the transformer and the electrical pad here um but it will be smooth all the way to the parking lot so my question being is as you've rendered that and from the inside is that going to fill just the space that was originally there or is it going to are you going to need to take out more brick than what we're we won't need to take out any more brick okay no the masonry we're stuck we can't go any further than um this is a load bearing uh column and then this is also another load bearing column so we're stuck with the interior between those and this has this is plenty enough room this is a 36 inch opening we have a remainder of 36 so we're we're fine with a little excellent is that lighting existing on the exterior that's shown I don't know if that's a AI this one's here.

That's existing.

Yeah it was um if you could go to the rendered with the awning and yeah uh those look like new units okay yeah part of it we would keep um the one that's there we will more than like this won't be part of this application we will uh apply for an awning there but more importantly is getting the door approved fair enough all right so um and then there was one other a I think AI issue on the rear elevation yeah these windows they're gonna remain okay they added grills for me and made them longer yeah yeah we will ru we'll we'll maintain the uh these windows they're gonna be restored there were these are two um which was another indication that this was added at some point much later um these side windows are all metal and I don't think you know at that time these are brand these are new and this door is almost like an Anderson right I and I would offer that whatever the AI problem is that actually looks better than these windows because these windows they do not look appropriate to that wall.

Just let us paint it and it'll be a little bit which ones are you saying do not look appropriate the ones that are there.

They they do help date that wall right it there with the locking mechanism you can tell it looks like the 80s honestly to that's just my opinion I so I don't want to derail this David's gonna kill me.

So the back windows with the grid don't you think it does look better?

Well but I mean are we allowed to do that well if we have um a little bit more evidence that this is a non historic wallet I think it does give a good bit of leeway yeah on on that I think it's gonna look way better and it'll also like the grid is all the way around the entire building it's just this thing doesn't it looks like it comes from a different building.

It's just this thing doesn't, it looks like it comes from a different building.

So if you go that route, you'll need to update your scope of work.

Um maybe not update your drawings, but um, and then provide product literature.

Now, when we're looking at these windows on the rear elevation on a historic building, what I would recommend is a all wood, non-clad, double-hung window with I think the six over six is good, but with a simulated divided light with a spacer bar.

I know what that is.

So you're also talking about enlarging the opening?

That would no.

Oh, okay.

Well, what does Ann think?

Okay, so yes, yes, it enlarge it better.

It does.

Yeah, right.

It does look better.

Kind of the post-international style addition.

You know, after the uh sort of um progressive work of the front part of the building all the way back as you're growing in.

Yeah.

I give up.

Yeah.

But that that six over six dial that's shown, it really does work better in elongated uh opening.

It would it would be a little squat looking in the existing opening.

Okay.

Thank you guys.

Yeah.

The other exterior doors, they're all to remain.

I was gonna ask a question on um if we strip paint off and bring it back to a wood finish, is that allowed to see unpainted wood or stained wood is not allowed.

So I I there's this thing in the guidelines.

An opaque finish.

Yeah, where you can't see the wood grain, which I hate, I don't love that standard because I don't know if that's necessarily an honest reflection of uh Frederick or or historic doors in general, but front doors historically often had a sealant that allowed that wood grain to show through.

I do feel like if that is an approach you want to explore, I feel like that's a fair deviation.

I I I just I do just because the character of this building and in the streetscape that I um an exposed screen would be appropriate.

Yeah, because we are we're proposing to put that new side door in the wood.

Um the the other two doors, uh the back door, I don't think we were proposing to strip um, and then I don't believe the uh kitchen door or the room door.

Yeah, we don't want people to enter through that backspace.

So we we don't really want to call attention to it too much.

So we're just gonna leave that.

Well, you know, beautiful enough, but we don't want people to try to go in that way.

So that's a challenge because this building has four entrances, so it's really hard to get people to understand this is where you're supposed to go in.

Um so that's why we're trying to call attention more to this space, have this ADA accessible.

And the signage would be helpful as well.

Yeah.

So and if I could ask a question about those windows up front.

One more time.

The windows up front here.

Yeah.

You know, it's a author that those do not look original to the building either.

There's this additional, if you look inside, we actually have um, I don't know if he has the pictures, but they were filled in.

It's just a matter of cost.

Um so actually they're not, I don't think either, because they're you can see it's bricked up and you can actually see an old wood, that's what the old wood beam we're gonna leave exposed.

So it was bricked up and there's a clear outline, sort of like that double door.

At some point they changed it and they closed it in and they made a smaller window in the front.

It's just a matter of, you know, uh it's a that's a huge window and it's a lot of money to take those out.

So we're just gonna leave that be for right now.

But later, maybe, you know, I it's just it's already big enough.

Keep in mind the city has a historic preservation tax credit, 25%.

It does have a cap.

Frederick County has a historic preservation tax credit.

Oh, look at that.

That's interesting.

Thank you.

Um you apply to our tax credit, you can automatically apply for the county credit, but I would also encourage you to apply for the state tax credit too.

Oh, look at that.

Um but you would want to start that now.

Where on our program you get your HPC approval, you do work, and then you apply for the tax credit, the state's opposite, apply for that tax credit now before you do before you get HBC approval, before you get permits, before you do the work.

Apply for that tax credit now before you do before you get HPC approval, before you get permits, before you do the work.

It's another 25%, it's another 20% and could be a big cost savings.

Can we use that for these panes and what we're doing with these windows?

Absolutely.

I think everything that we've talked about on the exterior would be eligible except for the the change in the well, no, we can argue that.

So we would go through you to ask how so how do we hand how do we do that?

Because we would love to have that.

It's expensive to restore a historic building.

Right.

So we can help you with any questions for the state.

Or I'm sorry, for the the local credit.

Um but for the state, Josh can forward you some information to the historic preservation officer who can help you out with that.

Oh let us stuff beforehand.

So we have a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a.

Oh, you might already have it.

That has to be done before we do the work.

Yeah, I would start on that tomorrow.

Okay.

But at least if you have it submitted, you can move on, right?

It's just getting it in the door saying this is what we intend to do.

Well, the state state application has to be approved before anyone.

That's the thing.

So you you'll want to really get that movement.

Delay your progress.

Yeah, sorry, yeah.

Only caveat on the street facing door is I mean, uh stained wood door would look sharp there, but we have had the case in the past where uh uh applicant put up you know new uh mahogany shutters, stain them.

They look great, but we made her go back and paint them because of the guidelines.

So uh you know you do run a risk there, but maybe not from us, but if she drives by and sees a stained door there, Christine's going on the call.

So make sure you call that as part of your request so that the H HPC can actually incorporate that as part of your approval.

That that we're allowing that that detailed.

But I think for doors, I think it's more appropriate.

Shutters and porches, I think that it's a little bit more on characteristics of historic practices.

If we might talk about the side sidewalk, I mean you're proposing raising the whole thing up 12 inches or so to get access versus putting in a ramp.

How's that be a giant ramp?

Yeah, so currently there's um there's a high point in the grade somewhere in here.

Um this door already has a stoop at it.

So we're gonna break that grade here and bring this.

It almost works to all the way down to the uh parking lot side.

So we'll bring it up with the concrete, sorry.

I mean, that's going to impact your neighbor on the west.

It's gonna raise it up.

Are you proposing to infill some grade there?

Yeah, yeah, for your neighborhood.

We'll change the grade there on that side and infill any grass that needs to uh um earth that needs to be infilled.

I don't know why.

But yeah, there would be some.

This is already kind of sloped in the middle here.

It pitches water runs down, so we would be bringing us up about you know, down here it'd be zero.

But we would build either a kitten wall here to allow for it or um regrade and bring up.

We are involved in this project that's coming up soon, and we know that there is a substantial outdoor effort being uh undertaken for the outside, so we can grade, we can blend these two grades in to work uh in the long run.

I don't know uh getting into the detailed weeds here, but I do have personal knowledge that kind of at the end backside of that neighboring building.

Uh the everything kind of slopes towards the street from that back corner, everything other the rest of the walk kind of slopes towards the north.

And I know that portion of the sidewalk from the back of that building towards the street slopes into the neighboring property.

There was so significant mortar damage there that was recently repaired.

So uh I think you know what's there is probably adequate, but from the back of that adjacent building, uh basically the sidewalk coming north slopes all the to the north, and the rest of it slopes to the street.

But just uh if you're raising the whole thing, just be cognizant of be nice not to add more water going along the side of your neighbor's building.

Because that that that portion of the wall does slope east or east to west.

There is no dividing.

But anyway.

Our thought is we were gonna put planner boxes down there as a separation, so that would also help with the funneling the water.

Um that on top of that, that we didn't put that in this application, but do you think that would be a good idea for helping with the water flow?

He means between bake out where bake house sits right here, that the grade goes this way towards bake house.

Oh, I see.

So it's been restored and they built a whole new brick wall down there, but the water runs.

Yeah, the the sidewalk wasn't changed.

It still slopes.

It's still a little bit.

We're not touching, we're not going that far back with the with the new sidewalk.

We're just bringing it back to here.

We won't be pushing any additional water towards them.

We actually may be pulling some more water towards the the parking lot side.

Okay.

Just uh minor detail, but uh it impacts the neighbor.

I guess uh are you proposing any new lighting or additional lighting or I know there's some wall packs along that those would always we will leave them in intact for now.

Um any of these would just stay and be restored um to what they are now.

I do think that under the the signage application, you may, you know, if we do put an awning here, we're gonna need to do something there.

And then same thing out front when they do the signing package.

Um just lighting.

Th they'll more they'll more than likely have goosenecks out here in the mortar.

I heard that.

Don't worry.

And not on these columns.

But we will put you know, probably some goosenecks here.

The turning point sign would, you know, but that's a whole nother whole package.

So this is the advantage of being last.

That is the gift, right?

Because then you get to hear and learn as you move on, right?

Don't worry, we won't call you a kangaroo call.

Thank you.

That's very kind.

I was like, oh man, it's not gonna go well.

You guys were super gracious though, after we've heard it before.

He he's kind of new, so he didn't he's he hadn't heard it before.

Well, what do you guys think overall about that uh canopy and you know we just taking the temperature?

I mean, I know it's not part of this package, but protecting the the doorway, is that something that's generally favorable or yes, there are design considerations though for them.

Um like where you placed it was appropriate.

The standards in the guidelines are you to follow the finestration pattern, so we wouldn't want to necessarily see an awning over a whole wall when there's no windows or anything underneath it.

So how you uh placed it and the sizing of it was completely fine.

We do want a fabric rather than a vinyl.

Um and then the valance, it's shown in the photograph as a taunt valance, which is a very modern feel.

What the guidelines encourage and what I would recommend is a more traditional valance where it's not um tight, it it's loose, and um how that's applied is is the structure of the awning.

So if the awning structure that holds the fabric on it has a second bar at the bottom, it's designed for that cloth to be held tight against it.

So we don't want that second bar.

We want that valence to be loose.

Okay.

That's if I could ask this.

Um on Market Street at All Saints is tonic.

He's got three or four blue awnings out there.

I feel like they have a very taut fit.

I don't feel like they have a whole lot.

Because we talked about lighting for those.

Remember the lighting part.

Right.

I don't know if those awnings were pre-existing and they just recovered them.

Perhaps.

That might be the case.

There are a handful, and I see them and I go all the time.

But there's a handful where it with a tau the taut lining awning.

These that are didn't get HPC approval or okay, that's fair.

I just when you said that I'm like, wait a minute.

Uh and assuming that he had gotten approval.

Um maybe you guys shouldn't look at those then.

Okay.

But yeah, the the concept is fine.

There's just little uh some minor design considerations.

Thank you.

And uh the one thing is is that that would have we couldn't approve that administratively, that would have to go to the commission.

So if it's something you're considering you might mean make it worth your while to add it to other things, um bigger things that aren't eligible for self review of anything else?

So the resubmission deadline is Monday at 11.

You don't have a huge lift, a couple cleanup things, uh some um information about the the windows.

Can you guys help us um to prove that this back is not historic?

Yeah, I can try and uh get that to you tomorrow.

Because that's I think that feels like the only thing that's in question right now.

I think you ask for a little more specs on that.

Yeah, that'd be great.

Um the windows, um I don't know if I can have a shop drawing by Monday of these new windows.

Um what's wrong with that?

It it it might go really good with an awning package.

Which may be the case.

We just might kick that down the road, put it in another application.

Because I'm painting that room anyway, and I feel like ripping away right now.

Right.

So okay, we'll do that.

We'll we'll move that to the uh um the next submission, but we definitely would like to get your help in getting this approved.

Yeah.

Um and then I'll add the photographs of the window replacement.

Yeah.

And then um just check out that other side, the the Carol Creek side wall to see if there's any indication of painting there, just so that we know what what that looks like.

And if it turns out there's paint, I think you guys are good to go.

You know, painting.

All right.

Well, thank you for the uh interesting conversation and really excellent project.

We're looking forward to seeing this move forward.

Thank you guys.

Thank you all.

I didn't know that you all are volunteers, right?

I have no idea.

So thank you, because you're here late too, and we appreciate it.

Thanks.

Thank you guys.

Okay.

Without objection, we are adjourned.

Sounds better on a piece of paper.

Yeah.

Ed, can I show you tax credits for a minute?

What do I get?

I often go with the reason.