The United States of America and to the Republic for where she stands.

One nation under God.

Indivisible with the justice at all.

Thank you.

We have a pretty streamlined agenda tonight.

We have one item which will be presented by our director of public works, Brian Johnson.

Review city bid processes and professional service procurements.

Well, good evening, Mayor Commissioner Brian Johnson, Gardener Board Association Engineer.

I've got a quick presentation to go over our contracts and procurements, professional services and contracting.

It is complicated.

It's about a 20-page PowerPoint.

If at any point you have questions, please feel free to jump in because it is complex how we uh how we procure our services.

Everything that we do though is spelled out in our purchasing policy, which is online if you'd like to read it.

And also our engineer on call process, which is also online.

So first, I got a couple of definitions that I want to talk about.

Request for qualifications or an RFQ.

So a request for qualifications is something that we use to solicit professional services from consulting firms.

And I I added this slide here about an hour ago because I wanted to clarify between RFQ and RFP.

So our RFQ, we are asking for professional design services from a firm that has experience in that design.

We're not asking for a price, that comes later during the scope and fee process.

We are strictly asking for who is the best at this specific item.

And that is required anytime we do state or federal projects.

So if we have any grants in a project, it is an RFQ base, not an RFP base.

The RFP has a proposal for their cost in it.

So they'll submit their qualifications, plus they'll submit a fee statement so that we know what those fees are.

But in an RFQ, they don't.

It's based on who's the best at that specific topic.

Then after we solicit the RFQ, there's a committee that will review it.

If the commission concurs with that recommendation, then we'd begin scope and fee.

You're going to see that in the campus creek RFQ that is out now.

There'll be a committee that'll collect those RFQs and we'll go through them with a committee of people, make a recommendation to the commission.

The commission will authorize us then to start scope and fee.

If we can't come to an agreement on scope and fee with the first, then we go to the second, and then down to the third.

So that's how that process works.

What do we do when we have something that's really an outlier like the design of the exhibits in the Discovery Center?

We go to an RFQ.

Yeah.

And but I mean, who helps us know that they're there's all sorts of companies that do all sorts of things.

And on that case, I would defer to Aaron because that's his building.

But I mean we have all sorts of oddball things in engineering too.

Uh retaining walls, bridges, all kinds of things that we don't do every day.

We solicit for those services.

Okay.

Because there's firms out there that do that.

Okay.

So for city process, we have basically four design bid build, construction manager at risk, design build, and then a development agreement.

So in the design build, I've listed several different things here that the design build does really well at.

In public works, probably 98% of what we do is design bid build.

It's what we're set up for.

It's what most federal and state city governments do.

But it's really infrastructure-based.

It doesn't do a real great job on vertical construction, and that's why we have those other categories.

Again, we either design it in-house or we request an RFQ.

There's a sealed bid that's submitted to the city clerk, and it's a unit price contract.

Contract specifies a time limit for construction and phases.

Contract is written to the city, and then the contractor is not responsible for design or collaboration with the architect or engineer.

That contractor is there and he's getting paid, she's getting paid to put water main in the ground.

That's it.

That's what their contract reads.

They uh act as those project managers, and it takes a lot of time.

Umerson Avenue, I'm I would guess Karen probably spends 30 to 35 hours a week on Anderson Avenue.

It's very time intensive, but it also has some advantages.

So then Brian, when a project is underway as Anderson Avenue is, uh, could you just give us an idea of what types of monitoring she is doing?

Sure, yeah.

So on a weekly basis, there's a uh construction meeting every week to talk with the contractor about what they've done and what they're gonna do the next week, and then two weeks out, because we have to start getting information out to the public on lane switches, road closures, then they'll talk about are we putting water main in the ground this week, or are we gonna pave this week?

Because that sets up your insight inspection schedule.

Do I need a water main inspector?

Do I need a concrete inspector?

Do I need a storm sewer inspector?

So they have those, and then also if there's any issues with uh utilities, if there's any coordination issues, if there's any complaints from the neighborhood on traffic on detours on all of those things that that you just have to check every day.

So uh, you said there's no collaboration between the architect and the contractor.

Correct.

But I'm sure when surprises come up, things come up, there's got to be some kind of if if there's a problem with the plans, then there is, and then it's all hands on deck.

But as far as a daily discussion goes, that engineer, if they're brought on board through a contract, that engineer, once they turn those plans in, they're done.

Then you have to get into CE services or construction management phase services.

So construction manager at risk.

This is the other model we use quite a bit, and we use it a lot for vertical construction because it's kind of set up that way to work the best.

What this does is it forces a partnership uh between the design team and the construction team so that that construction team is brought on board early.

What that construction team do can do then is look for ways to either speed up the project or look for ways to save money on the project.

Maybe there's a new type of material out that's cheaper, maybe there's a new process that can get done sooner.

Uh those contractors are a lot more in tune to that than the uh engineering firm or the architectural firm.

So they're brought in early, they are also part of the design and plan review process.

So their comments are also taken.

Uh typically there'll be a contingency in the contract, five to eight percent.

And then once the once the design gets far enough along, there is a bid process in CMAR.

So it's not like that contractor is not bidding.

That contractor is a general contractor, and they'll go out the subs for dirt work.

They'll go out to subs for electrical, they'll go out the subs for concrete work.

Uh as an example, the joint maintenance facility.

I think there's about 300 different bid items on the joint maintenance facility when that was bid because there's just that many different skill sets that happened at that building.

Uh the CMAR can also bid on phases of the work, and then us as the owner get to decide who we're gonna go with as far as uh uh the owner or the uh general contractor.

It does set a maximum price, and then that risk for that maximum price is shifted to the contractor.

If steel goes up 40%, it's not my issue.

It's the contractor's issue.

If gas goes up doubles overnight, not my problem.

Contractor's problem.

Any risk associated in that contract is pushed to the contractor.

I think we saw the advantages of this uh method in building COPAR ball fields.

Yes.

Uh you know, you started out uh the maximum price with all these alternatives, and then you were able to work in all of them, I guess.

That was actually a design build, CO2.

Design build.

Yeah.

It follows the same kind of the same process as construction manager at risk, but it brings that contractor in at a different time.

That's really the difference.

It really made a big difference at joint maintenance because when we bid that steel was like $300 a ton, and because we had an underwriter on the steel, when it went to $100 a ton, we saved several hundred thousand dollars.

So that made a huge difference on joint maintenance.

Again, we're trying to push that risk away from the city and towards the contractor, which is what this contract does.

So in the maintenance deal, it's uh it's a done deal, I understand.

Originally it was designed for a little over 10 million, they ended up near 20.

Where was the creep?

Well, it wasn't originally designed at 10 million.

There was a commission meeting, a work session where we talked about budget, and one of the commissioners said would 12 million dollars build it.

We never had a bid at 10 million dollars.

It was it was stated publicly that that would 12 million dollars build it.

But we never had the when the bids came in, they came in at that 21, 20 million.

And during that dance uh creation, do we keep changing things, adding things from where it was conceptually designed?

Well, from concept to final design on a building that big, you can get some.

I mean, it was a five-year project.

We originally got concepts in 2013.

We didn't bid it until 2019, 2020.

So we spent seven years negotiating trying to get to a contract.

So we just had price creep through those seven years.

Um we really probably downsized the building a little bit from what the original designs were just because we were trying to stay in that 20 range.

Any questions on CMAR?

Can I go to design build?

So design build is another form of bringing that contractor on board early.

Design build is typically used for vertical construction, and typically these are large enough companies that the construction company and the engineer architect are the same company.

These are your uh keywords, your Corollos, these are your bigger companies that will have a building department or a construction department on site, also.

So there's some advantages there to have them both in the same company because the communication obviously goes back and forth, and the companies work with each other a lot.

So design build does have those advantages with communication between the design team and the contracting team.

It also has advantages if the contractor has an issue, they walk down the hall and talk to the design team.

They don't pick up the phone and call somebody in St.

Louis.

So there are some advantages there.

Again, there is maximum price set.

And because the contractor and the design team are the same, their incentive is for that project to be successful.

They don't want a black eye any more than any other company does.

Again, the contractor would then have PM responsibilities.

They also would have communication and collaboration.

If there's some issue down the road, then that's that's their issue that they have to solve.

On these hybrid programs, is there any rationalization why the holdback or the contingency funds are five to eight percent?

Because if they're designing it and they know what they're doing, why is there a contingency?

Seems to me we are allowing escape for them for things that they may have screwed up or not thought of.

Yeah.

And at some point in time, it ought to be their liability, kind of like the gas price of the iron price.

Sure, and let me explain that contingency.

That contingency is ours.

We spend it if we want it.

We don't, they don't spend it, it's ours to spend.

So if something comes up and we wanted to add another bathroom, we can do that.

We have contingency in that contract to do it.

We don't have to do a separate bid.

Uh, if we wanted to do uh a better wash bay, we could do a better wash bay.

There's contingencies in there for if we decide we wanted to do something different than what the original plan was.

Imagine building your house.

You have a contract to build your house, and you decide you want to go to stainless steel appliances.

Well, there's a contingency in there to pay for that.

That's what that contingency is for.

So that's design build.

I put together a quick matrix kind of which ones do what and how well they work.

One being, again, my opinion here, one being the thing that they struggle with the most for being what they do the best.

Um, that's my opinion.

That's how I would rank them over what does best and what what lacks quick make on that, excuse me.

One of the big things is owner control over subs.

My contract is with a general contractor in design bid build.

If they have a framer or carpenter, a water main company, I can't communicate with that company directly.

My contract's with the GC.

Whereas design bid build, that contract is with the GC, and that GC can tell that contractor to be there or leave or whatever.

So that is one of the bigger deals.

Development agreement, we don't do a ton of these, and really development agreement is the developer to the developer is a contractor.

And these are really subdivisions, these are apartment complexes, these are buildings where we have public infrastructure in the building, but we don't necessarily own the building.

Umball Avenue, we had a contract with Cedarhurst to widen Kimball Avenue within the last month or so.

That's the development agreement.

That builder and developer is going to widen Kimball Avenue, but we have a cost in that also through our cost share policy, and that would be a development agreement.

The one hitch on these is if the city has 50% or more of the costs, it's our prerogative to take that project to a bid.

We can tell that developer, no, we're the majority share owner, we want to go to a public bid and get our cheapest price.

And if they can't match that cheapest price, then somebody else is going to do it.

That was that happened on Anderson Avenue several years ago with Scenic Crossing.

The quick shop on the north side of Anderson by the roundabout.

The developer, we had a cost share in it.

We were more than 50%, so we went to bid, and the developer was not the lowest bid.

So we had a third-party company go do all that infrastructure work because it saved us money, cost the developer more money.

That's probably the last one that we were more than a 50% share in.

But we do have that in all of our development clauses.

So these are projects that are over 50,000.

Our policy requires performance payment or statutory bond and warranty bonds.

So bonds are our, I'm gonna say insurance policy, but they're not, they're bonds to make for sure that that performance from that contractor meets our minimums.

And that's for if the contractor doesn't meet our minimums or if the contractor leaves.

We have cash performance bonds in the past in my career.

We have taken performance bonds and hired another contractor to finish work because the first contractor couldn't do it.

Payment bonds, so those are to make for sure that that general contractor is paying their bills.

If they don't pay their concrete bill, they don't pay their steel bill, they don't pay their traffic control bill.

We can take that bond and go pay their subs.

We've also done that in my career here.

And then warranty bonds are after the project's completed and finaled, there's a one-year warranty on everything, and we walk projects at the end of that one year.

If there's cracks in the pavement, if there's fire hydrants not working, whatever the issue is, if they don't go back and fix them, we can take the warranty bond and go fix it.

We have not cashed a warranty bond in my career here.

The contractors always come back and fix things.

Questions about bonding.

So all of our projects are bid with a completion date and liquidated damages or a monetary penalty if not completed in that time frame.

And there's two different contracts.

One is a working day and one is a completion day.

And a working day is a contract day where the contractor has more than half of their working force doing a specific item of work.

So if they get rained out, that's not a working day.

If they there's some shortage, some crisis, something they can't get materials, that's not a working day.

Completion days are drop dead days.

You have to be done by this day period.

If you're not, I don't care.

If your concrete got held up in the Suez Canal, that's not my issue.

You got to be done by this day, or you're gonna pay damages.

Are there ever any rewards for being done significantly early?

We have not.

We have discussed that.

We have discussed performance performance-based, and some cities do it.

We have not done it in the past.

There's simple contracts to set up and you can set them up that way.

K Dot does it a lot.

K Dot kind of bases it on volume of traffic.

So if you're on I-70, there might be a bonus to get it done earlier because you got 50, 60,000, 70,000 cars a day.

We typically don't have that volume where it makes that performance a big issue.

I think this is the section we were uh referring to last week in our discussion about Morrow Street.

And needing to get it done as fast as possible, putting some kind of bonus.

Completion date with damages or a bonus or something on that or whatever.

What we have done in the past is we've just raised our liquidated damages to make them really expensive.

We've done 1,500, $2,000 a day, a calendar day.

So you're talking $20,000 a week.

So we have done those in the past.

What I will tell you is the longer the contract is, the more a working day contract is appropriate because you don't know what the winner's gonna do.

You don't know what the rain's gonna do.

The longer those contracts go out, there's just so many more uncertainties as you go out six, twelve, eighteen months.

That's why those working day contracts really come into play.

The majority of our contracts are completion day because they're just not that long.

Ryan, is there any sort of um excuse for subcontractors that a contractor may have and the sub goes bankrupt or the subject?

No, it doesn't isn't.

Because that would slow them up because I you know I know sometimes they just have to wait for and we've had those scenarios where a sub will go under or not show up or not do the work.

That's between that general contractor and the sub.

In our contracts, we require them to have a written contract and bonds between those two.

So if for some reason a sub wouldn't perform the work and the general contractor would refuse to do it or wouldn't do it, I'd go cash their their performance bond.

Okay, and then I'd go hire somebody to do it.

We have had that scenario though.

Any more questions about bonding?

Charter Ordinance 62.

So this is uh ordinance we just passed a couple years ago.

Uh in general, we take the lowest responsible bidder, submitting a responsive bid.

Charter 62 allows you folks to do to do a different process if you authorize us to do that.

Uh Charter 62 allows the commission to do direct negotiations with the contractor.

So you could tell me, Brian, I want you to go direct con or direct contract with contractor X, and that's what I would do.

I'd go develop a scope and fee, and that contractor would give us a price.

Uh selection of a provider from an RFQ or RFP, again, same kind of process.

Uh, it also allows the commission to select a design build or CMA project delivery, and that is solely at your discretion.

So you can pick the way that you want to have them done, and as staff as the city engineer, it's my prerogative to make that make that happen.

So, just real quick, I kind of wanted to show the process of these and how they can't take a while.

Uh design bid build, again, typical or traditional public works bid.

This is what we do every single day.

Uh, we actually had two bid openings today.

We got some great prices today, so I was really encouraged about that.

Um, funding, design, go back for some more design work.

This was what we would call the field check.

So we would take the plans, we'd actually go out in the field and go walk, and you know, this handicap ramp needs rebuilt, this panel needs replaced, this mast arm is no good.

Then we come back to what's called an office check, and then final design.

This is where I would stamp it as a city engineer and authorize it to bid, then we'd have a contract that would come before you.

This is typically the longest from start to finish because all your design work happens up front before you get a contractor.

And 12 months of design is not uncommon.

Uh, there could be an additional two to three months in a bidding and awarding.

Majority of infrastructure projects are in this form.

Uh, majority of local, county, state, and federal projects also follow this format.

The one uh piece of this that is really difficult is if you get to this 60 or a final design stage and we decide we want something else.

You're talking about hundreds of pages of design now.

I have to go back and fix.

I got to fix page three and page 13, page 27 and page 52.

So if you have to go back, you want to make for sure at this 30% design phase, this is the project you want.

You really do not want to make a decision later and back the train back up because you start all over and that's expensive.

So this is a typical design bid build contract.

Uh you can see we have unit prices for, you know, there's asphalt by the ton, uh, there's pavement markings, all sorts of bid items.

Uh each one of those is a task of work.

We have a certain quantity, and then we have a unit price that the bidder bids.

So again, these are unit price contracts.

So the advantage of these are if I decide I want to do another half block of paving, I've got a unit cost.

I know what that costs me.

I can easily change order that in and have that done.

If I get a really cheap price on asphalt, maybe I do another half block of asphalt because I got a really good price on it.

If I got a really good price on sidewalk, maybe I do another block of sidewalk because I got a really good price on it.

So that's the advantage of these.

The disadvantage is there's no line item for public relations.

There's no line item for project management.

That contractor is not getting paid to go knock on the neighbor's door and tell them it's gonna be okay.

That's project manager's responsibility.

So that's the disadvantage.

Again, we have performance payment and maintenance bonds.

Time limit, this one is 75 calendar days, and then 14 days for final completion, early start, late start days, and then here's your liquidated damages.

We did a thousand dollars per working day on this.

So again, that's pretty substantial.

So you're talking Saturdays, Sundays, you're paying a thousand dollars a day.

Any question on unit prices?

These are the kind of contracts that when we get calls and complaints about I saw six contractors standing around doing nothing.

If they're standing around doing nothing, they're not getting paid because they get paid to put concrete down and they get paid to put storms in the ground.

So these are those contracts that when I get those phone calls, I say you need to talk to their superintendent because they lost money that day, and that doesn't make superintendents happy.

So Anderson is this way.

So if you see six people standing around, they're not getting paid.

They get paid for water main, they get paid for for streets.

Construction manager at risk.

So again, designer and contractor work in pairs to reduce construction time and conflicts, uh, which really maximizes the budget.

It really allows you to get the most bang for your buck when you're talking about vertical design.

Uh owner and contractor contingencies are built into the contract again.

And here we start at this concept, identify funding.

Once we start this, which is where we are on Morrow, we bring in that consultant and we get a general contractor on board.

This is that contract you signed the other night.

We'll get the 60% design, we'll identify any easements.

The real advantage of this is we can start some work before we get to that final design.

Uh, you can on a building, you can start putting the plumbing and utilities to the building.

You can run power to the building, you can put your footings in the ground because you're still working above grade.

Then they'll put out that final bid package, the general contract will bid packages to subs, and then they'll develop that final guaranteed max.

And here's kind of a uh snippet of what a construction manager at risk bid looks like.

So, you know, they have large items site demo, northwork, site utilities improvements, concrete.

They'll send those out to uh subcontractors, subcontractors will bid on those, and then you get your final guaranteed maximum price 1.093 million.

But because this isn't as detailed, I don't know specifically what I'm paying per ton for asphalt because it says asphalt paving or concrete paving.

I don't have those specific numbers.

So if I wanted to add a half block of paving, I have to negotiate for that price.

On these, if in the proposal that they're working on, you see a sub that is now acceptable to the city because you've had problem with them every time they show up.

Are you keeping authority to say you can't use that subject?

Absolutely.

Okay.

Yes.

And we do that in design bid build too.

They have to list in their bid package, they have to list their subs.

And ultimately it's up to us if we accept those subs.

If we don't, there's a cost.

There's gonna be a price increase to that contract because theoretically that sub was the lowest.

If the sub's not the lowest, it's not an issue.

But yes, we absolutely retain control until that contract's signed.

Once we sign it, then we're we're in the canoe paddling with everybody else.

Presumably, if I did we know where the project's going.

We'd know who else is in the canoe with us, yes.

Commissioners, just a reminder to turn your microphone on.

Unfortunately, there's only one citizen here.

I think we're getting text messages that folks who are watching on home also cannot hear you this evening.

You know you have a fan base, Commissioner Morrison.

Well, the ones I've been getting, I really don't care, but it's okay.

Okay.

Uh so this talk about design build now.

Um, this is also a uh delivery method we've used in the past.

Uh again, it really works well for vertical construction, CO, prime example of that.

Uh, best when owner wants a specific building or specific use.

Uh design firm and builder can be likely are the same.

Not always, but likely.

Again, our RFQ for builder, you know, we start a concept funding once we get into this phase and we start bringing that contractor on board and start looking for efficiencies and design cost maximums.

Again, we get the final design, some parts of the building can start and then bid and contract.

Development agreements.

So, this is what I was talking about earlier.

We don't do a ton of these, these are really development-based apartments, buildings, those sorts of things.

These steps are all done by private, and typically we don't see the first design plans until in here.

During platting, we encourage that developer to come in early and talk to us.

So if we can identify areas that we can partner on and save some money, or maybe there's some design features that we know of that can maybe cut some costs, but we don't always get that.

A lot of times we don't get involved until in this range.

Again, final design where I would stamp the plans and sign them, and then we come to you with a contract for them to go build it and any cost share that we would have in that.

This same kind of thing, except for if we have more than 50% cost share through the cost share policy.

Again, funding agreement taken to commission agreement, divides the cost to each entity.

City engineer approved final, and then we get that bid from that developer for that cost, and we reserve the right to go to a formal bid if that's what we choose to do.

Then we come back to our contract and come before you with a contract in hand.

Some of it specifically, traffic equipment, signals, polls.

We use a specific company for that.

Software hardware, utility equipment, state contract for vehicles and equipment.

Using the same specialized equipment allows our maintenance crews to be trained on a single piece of equipment.

So when the signal's not working, they don't have to figure out which manufacturer it is and call them traffic controller from GADE's.

Again, same same process for hardware software utilities.

Only one platform reduces training costs, allows really it allows us to stockpile backups, which is very helpful, especially when you start talking about traffic equipment that's six to eight to twenty-week lead times on a lot of that stuff.

12-week lead time on a traffic piece of equipment is not uncommon.

So that is the design and build and construction package.

I'm going to talk a little bit about professional services, but before I get there, I got a question.

When the county bid on CNT Drive a zillion years ago paving it.

Okay.

Um we got such low bids that we thought it'd be nice to make it four lane.

But since the bid didn't call for that, the statute said we couldn't do that.

Well, county statutes are different than city statutes.

Okay.

You may not have had a chapter 62 ordinance.

Okay.

And at the end of the day, the contractor would have had to agree to that price to widen that road, and they may not have wanted that.

Well, the price was adequate, was under the you know, we could have done it for the same price, and it was really sad because statute wouldn't allow it.

And I I'm not an expert on county, I'm really not.

Thank you.

But we could if we wanted to, if that's what your question is.

We absolutely could.

I'd have to come to you.

In fact, we did that uh a few years ago on College Avenue with North Campus.

Our street costs were so low, we actually did the southbound lanes on college between Kemble and Dickens.

Okay.

So we added that because we already had the road closed.

Why wouldn't you?

And we got a really good price on it too.

So we actually came back before the commission and they added that.

Okay.

You ready for professional services?

So we've had an on-call program for about 10 years, and the process involves the city issuing an RFQ in 10 categories.

So there's the 10.

We originally started with four categories: water, wastewater, transportation, and stormwater.

Uh the pretty traditional engineering uh categories.

Uh we did this because the RFQ process can be very lengthy.

It can be 20 to 24 weeks before you get through the RFQ process.

Campus Creek, we have a RFQ out right now for about six weeks for consultants to tell us how great they are, and they never do anything wrong.

Uh then we have to negotiate scope and fee.

We have to come back for you to uh get that authorization.

So there's 20 to 24 weeks in there to get somebody under contract.

On call, umce they compete through that RFQ process and they're selected to be in that group of three, we can just pick up the phone and get a scope and fee from them.

Everything comes back before the governing body, though.

I don't sign a contract for more than $50,000 without coming back before you.

So no matter what that contract is, it still has to go through the commission.

But we pick three people or three firms.

Each one of them has background in these ten.

Uh this process or the on-call actually comes up at the end of the year as a three-year program.

We're going to be back before you probably in August asking to extend that and to issue new RFQs for new firms to apply.

So that'll probably be August, September.

Yes.

So how long has it been since we updated that on call list?

Three years ago.

Is that reasonable?

Yeah, actually, most places go five to ten.

We started with two, we bumped it to three.

I'm probably gonna ask you to go to five.

Um most places are five to ten, K-States ten.

Uh most places are a lot longer than we do, but we wanted to start small and then see how it worked and work up from there.

So far, we've had well, in fact, we started with four categories.

I'm up to ten now.

That's how successful it's been.

Um in August, I'll probably come back and ask you to go to five years instead of three.

Brian, if they were qualified, did you did you turn anybody down if they expressed interest and were qualified?

If there was more than four in a category, yes.

We only pick three firms per category so that we could get turnover in the categories, so that uh if you were in a category, you likely got work.

Whereas if I had ten people in one category and one person in another category, that one person's gonna get all the work, and those ten, you're only gonna get maybe one.

So we're trying to spread it out so that you have a combination of factors that you can weigh.

Ryan?

Back to Jason real quick.

I think there's only one category that had more than three.

Yes.

I'm curious about the property acquisition.

Yes.

Is for like easements or yes.

We use that on Android.

We actually use that a lot.

We use that on Anderson Avenue, on K-18, Fort Riley Boulevard, yes.

So is that hiring realtors or appraisers?

Uh it's hiring firms that have a skill set in property acquisition.

There's firms that that's all they do.

They go around and buy property.

Uh there's actually big firms that that's what they do.

That's all they do.

And in that category, we actually made the property acquisition agent have a appraiser underneath them on that team.

So we had the full team, attorney, everybody, all in one package.

I haven't wandered through our massive information system on our city system.

Yeah.

Is there a listing of who are the three on each of those categories on our public site?

Well, the award would have been when we came and awarded them all, that went to the commission, and that commission memo would have all of them on there.

I don't believe we have it posted on our website.

I could send it to you if you wanted to see it.

I'm in the FI and not overly impressed that my skills of finding things.

I just wanted to make sure if it was there, if I went and looked hard enough, I got lucky.

Yeah, it was in the original award in 2024.

Even internally, Brian, talk to them about your process for rotating because you get calls from several departments as to where you're at on their on-call for that particular service.

Yeah, so we keep an internal list of who got the last project and who's next, and then who's the next one after that, and then we rotate back through.

So if I don't know who's in what category off the top of my head, but let's say Schwabeton's in Stormwater and they got a project to do something, we know who's next in that.

So if somebody comes to me and says, hey, I got a stormwater issue out at Annenberg Park, I need you to look at, we can call who's ever next on that category.

It has to be less than three million dollars of construction, and it has to be a project, not a master plan.

So we did have some caveats in there as far as what it what you can do.

Uh if you did get selected, you got a letter saying you're selected, and these are the categories you're in.

So all those consultants know what categories they're in.

So it's not like they get blindsided, like, well, I didn't know I was getting the work, but yeah, they do know, and we sent out letters letting them know these are the categories you're selected in.

You've had consultants tell you they're busy.

Yeah.

And you moved on to the next one.

Yeah, or we can't do it for whatever reason.

Yep.

And we had consultants that didn't apply for it because they were just too busy.

We have enough work as it is.

So that's why we sent out the shotgun blast to try to get as many proposals back as we can.

The good thing about our system, our RFQ and our on call, it does meet state and federal requirements, so we can use it for a grant project.

We don't have to go out for a specific nether RFQ.

That saves us a ton of time.

So we set it up that way so that if we apply for a grant and we get it, we don't have to go out for another RFQ for those services.

Questions about the on call.

Again, probably August, September we'll be back before you talking about this and uh requesting that we do it again for another five years.

We've got a ton, a lot of positive comments about it.

Because every RFQ you send out at the end of the day, there's one happy person and six really mad people.

And to be on the on call, you know that you're gonna get rotated through.

And we've heard incidentally that putting together a good RFQ that really is good and you've done your homework and it makes me want to hire you, it's 15 to 20,000 to put that together in staff time.

Brian, do you ever get people who are trying to break into the system new newbies in town?

And I know I noticed that there's in the industrial park, there's a company coming in that's going to be located there, which would perhaps give them more leverage on being hired by Manhattan for things.

I mean, I think yeah.

So Torqueson is a construction company.

Uh-huh.

They're not uh engineering services firm.

So they would not be on this on call.

Okay.

But we do get companies that are new, and you know, we tell them it's coming at the end of the year, and you're welcome to apply for it like everybody else.

But for this until the end of the year, we're locked into these companies.

Okay.

Thank you.

Commissioner, sometimes we do have an emergency on call.

So we may have an electric company or two on that emergency on call, much like we have landscapers or tree service companies.

So there have been processes in the past that have selected some of those emergency on call.

I think some of the things that Brian points out that are worth mentioning again, the construction limits on this have driven participation and even our use of the tool.

The higher we get with construction, the more flexibility we have with those consultants to rotate them through.

We started, I believe, at a million.

And now we're at three.

It's a conversation we should have in the fall about how high to go to rotate through the selected companies.

Yeah, we started at a million, and at that time you could have a pretty decent project, and those days are unfortunately gone.

You mentioned the number it costs them to put together a proper poop sheet for you to know what's going on of 12,000, 15,000.

Well, you're talking 40 to 50 pages of engineering expertise.

And when I see a proposal that I'm going to sign a six or seven hundred thousand dollar design contract to you, I want to know you know what you're talking about.

I don't want to just see glamour shots and tell me all the great things you've done.

I want to know this specific project.

You've done your homework and you're coming on board and you know what you're doing.

So a newbie like me on the commission, the newbie and construction in Manhattan America, it basically shut out.

No, uh-uh.

Why would you be shut up?

How are they gonna get past it without the local experience and design and some of the other documents talk about that's important?

These are engineering services, those aren't contractors.

You're talking about you've mentioned a contractor.

A contractor can bid on any project we put out at any time.

If you wanted to go buy a milling machine and uh asphalt paper, you could have bid on my two projects this afternoon.

We've got all sorts of projects that all you have to do is get a bid bond and be bonded and get insurance.

For the construction part over Yes.

Okay.

Yes, that's correct.

And that's really I mean, I say that, but it those means those things I just mentioned are about five million dollars.

I mean, it's it's getting into construction is like trying to get into farming, it is incredibly expensive.

I understand that I'm I'm more interested in the access to even have the opportunity to do any of the professional services.

Sure, yeah.

But I think Larry, you have to sorry uh Commissioner Morrison.

Um I think one thing to keep in mind is we're talking about public services.

Yes.

Whereas a lot of these engineering firms are also engaged in private activities, and so there are opportunities for them to be building a portfolio and a demonstrable level of experience that's not necessarily part of what we're paying for until they have reached the level that we need to them to be for their professional functioning.

Yeah.

And K State hires you know, firms too, so you've got an opportunity for new firms to go and do work there.

They'res are usually a lot less expensive than ours.

Uh other cities you can do work in.

So there's plenty of work out there for engineering firms if somebody wanted to start one.

It's more about your background and what what your background is.

But it's no different than attorneys.

You know, you've got divorce attorneys and criminal attorneys, and you know, you're not gonna hire a divorce attorney if you're gonna go to court for uh a criminal charge.

We want to see that background and make for sure we know that you know what you're doing.

There are crazier things, but I agree with you.

And I've seen crazier things, and thank you for agreeing with me.

Is that it?

Can I can I scroll on or I think you do?

So again, based on city acquisition process, uh RFQ, we actually put it on our website.

We also advertise through Drexel, which is our electronic plant house.

Uh City Commission authorizes us to go do that once a scope and fee are agreed upon.

That contract is brought back before for approval if again those three million dollars, and then we'll renew it here in three years.

So with that, I will stand for questions.

I'm sorry, just I'm a couple of steps back here.

It didn't get a lot of last night.

Um you said it's based on the acquisition process, and part of that includes posting it on the website as well as did you say Drexel.

Yeah, so we have a uh electronic plant house that we use for all of our plans.

It's called Drexel.

Uh it doesn't cost us a penny to use it, it costs the contractor and the consultant firm to get on their website and be registered.

There's I there must be 500 cities on that.

It's nationwide, it's a really good system that we're using.

We're really happy with it.

So that's that's what we use.

It's called Drexel.

Brian, can you speak a little bit to construction contracts in terms of our experience and price levels and interest in projects?

Um this fall, too.

There's a my impression between a half million and maybe two or three million.

We sometimes have a hard time getting people interested in those projects.

Yeah.

Once we get over that two, three million dollar mark, we have a pretty good stable of not only local but regional type of uh construction companies.

Yeah.

The construction industry itself, whether it's water, sewer street, storm, that's that's a whole industry that Brian is very familiar with.

If we go vertical on a project and build uh steel buildings or uh brick and mortar or stick, we we get into a whole nother really arena of contractor.

Um but we could we could expand on some options we have for construction, much like we have with consultants.

Um I do think there's an edge towards some of the bigger contractors in the community when it comes to more sophisticated projects.

Could there be a way to grow our own in terms of getting them the experience that they desire to get larger?

I think there's some options out there.

I do think the on-call allows us some flexibility to work with local consultants that may or may not have that depth, but are building it and gives them an opportunity to really work with Brian and his team.

But I would just reiterate one point that Brian probably made early.

We have expertise in this building about water, sewer, storm, streets, sidewalks, and lighting, things you see go into our subdivisions, we have expertise.

When we get outside of that and we start building facilities or we get into vertical construction, we really lack in that expertise.

So we have tried to bring those resources along with us in project management or CMR or design build to get those professionals to the table earlier in the process.

One, so we have that representative, but two, so we can learn from those individuals early what to look out for and what to focus on when it comes to a project of that magnitude.

That was the whole reason why we started that project management and the on-call was to have that ability to have somebody come in and help us on that vertical construction because it's just not something that is really taught in engineering school.

It's not something that is really in the public works field.

There's not a lot of public works departments that do a lot of vertical.

Yes, Commissioner.

So to your point, sometimes we have smaller projects that we're looking at big contractors to do them, and you know, they can't build them cheap.

Yeah, it's a weird thing.

Uh I I specifically think of our cemetery maintenance facility or our joint zoo cemetery maintenance building for two million dollars.

Well, we all know there's plenty of cheaper buildings out there that you could probably build for 500,000 or so.

So how do we get how do we get those kind of cheaper?

Well, I'd defer errant on the zoo or or the cemetery, because I I don't spend a lot of time of it either place.

We need storage buildings and just maintenance not gotcha.

Yeah, Brian, I don't think it's a lot a lot different than the facility we built over at 3131 Anderson for norm.

Yeah.

When you know we we ended up doing a steel building and we did an RFP RFQ for that specific product, knowing if we went to a architect and started designing it, it would turn out a lot different than going to the steel or rec type of of business.

That's kind of what we did at the traffic shop too.

We we spec'd a steel building and a local contractor said, hey, that's that's right down my alley, and they came in and we did save some money and we project manage that a little bit, but that's that's not a common scenario.

So maybe if we get better instruction, we might not have to worry about marble.

We could go 10 on some project if we are clear and succinct on what we think is important.

Does that make a difference?

I'm not even sure what you're asking.

What is your question, Commissioner?

If you hire an architect, build you a house, yes.

You sure don't want to do that and leave the check blank in what you think you want and need.

If you don't give them some instruction, you'll have the Taj Mahal.

And you won't end up with a house because you can't afford it.

So I guess my question is statement is the more we can be definitive, what is appropriate for the cemetery.

I mean, well, I saw at the retreat, some of it was very good.

Some of it was ridiculous, in my opinion.

Okay.

And I think with what Larry is saying, if there had been some comments about what storage sheds are and maintenance sheds are, could say several million dollars from what I could see of the 13 million concept.

Okay.

Again, I would go back to these two happen first, so you know what your budget is.

You got your concepts and then you got your funding.

And before you do anything, that's where you start.

Well, I guess my comment is then when do we get to tell you what we think a concept that is going to be acceptable and fundable, help design what we're going to get.

If it was my building, I'd be before you, you know, in a CIP or an early discussion.

I can't speak for the cemetery and for the zoo.

I I don't know what their process is, but I know historically the parks department's been before you very early or before other commissions very early, talking about concepts and funding.

Yeah, I'm gonna ask um Parks and Rec Director Stewart to uh respond uh to some of this, but I I do think what's important um is when we when one of my very first meetings when we came here is when we were presenting presenting the concept of um the cemetery project and we identified what the funding is.

I think over the course of the multiple different conversations that we've had regarding the cemetery, we have heard that where we are at with that budget is too high for the commission's appetite.

So I think where we are at right now, when I know what Aaron is working on with his team, is going back to that concept and that funding and continuing to refine and continuing to refine and continuing to refine.

Eventually we will get to a point where uh we are um somewhere where we are meeting what those staff needs are and then also getting clear direction from the commission on what their um desire is for those funding opportunities.

So with the cemetery, we are exactly at that concept and funding um point of that project.

We have not gone into any design percentages yet, have we, Aaron?

Yeah, well, we did.

We we did the original execution was the phase one of a design build contract, and what was brought back at the 13 million was the the GMP.

And so in that um, but if we're strictly talking about buildings, uh they're on the lower end.

And I understand that we believe $2 million is really expensive for a building, but when you have office space in that kind of storage area and you're putting it in that kind of landscape where you're cutting back into the hill and providing that fencing and security and some of those things, those prices jump up, not necessarily because of the building, but because of everything else that goes into it, because it's not strictly just a storage shed.

And so there are additional costs.

The 13 million included things uh like roads and irrigation and uh columbariums and multiple buildings.

Uh it is it also includes the demo of existing sites.

And so, yeah, we we've heard that, and we want to look at uh potential um redesign, maybe in flatter spaces that doesn't require as much earthwork and things like that.

Um but again, I think the price of construction has increased significantly over the past, especially since 2019, uh to the tune of 50, 60 percent.

Some specialties are up 70 or 80 percent.

So it just uh the cost is more now, and when you're building a professional office building and not just a shop, there are other things involved.

We had hardened spaces in those buildings to make sure that if we had severe weather, our staff had a place to go.

You know, can that concept be refined and we'll try to shrink that down?

I think that's the direction you gave, and we'll certainly try that.

I think uh there's some other things that we've discovered that when we come back, we'll maybe even try to consolidate more.

I guess I just jump in, Commissioner, from public works.

The last two buildings we built were the traffic shop.

We spent four years talking about that before we got out of the screen and join maintenance.

We spent about six before we got out of the screen.

So we spent a lot of years talking, coming up with studies, trying to get budgets, trying to figure out how to cut this and add that.

Uh, you know, we spent a lot of time in those concepts and funding.

Uh 2014 to 2020 before we finally got a GMP.

So I'll just I'll just jump in one more thing because Commissioner Fox talked about um steel and pipe and how the original design was at 30 percent that was brought to the commission for a GMP.

And of course, we bid things out, and then all that stuff fell under the GMP, which is great, right?

But it's also I think at least in the parks and rec side of the house, we want to go further in design before we bring it to GMP, so we're a little more clear about what's actually in the project, and that it doesn't create that confusion with you know, once we do that bidding.

So I do think, at least for me, one of the lessons learned is maybe take that farther before we actually come back for a GMP.

What we approved last week with the construction manager at risk for the zoo, we'll probably looking at GMP at about 70 percent of design.

So we should have really kind of locked in what we're doing.

So it's a little in my opinion, it's a little more transparent from our side about what's actually included in the project.

I think um the discussion of those dollars for um storage and for a headquarters at Sunrise were um did a disservice to the commission and the public, and they were appalled at the price.

And I think what I would like to see is um significantly lower price on all of those issues.

I I think um a discussion of what we expect to have um to uh serve people at the two cemeteries, um, particularly since it was brought up that evening about perhaps we didn't even need to have an office where people would go.

And I I was very much against them initially, but then I thought, you know, generally you um you either live here and have some idea, or you're coming in for uh relative's um burial, and you're going to the first you're going to the um funeral home, and those people could be asked to do a step up, and then I don't see that it would be very difficult to go to someone here in City Hall to talk about the cost and the space and that kind of thing.

Um and we could have adequate signage that would point you to where you need to go.

And I just I cannot support spending millions of dollars on basically an office.

And um I I've driven up there several times to look around, and it it's not beautiful, but on the other hand, I've dealt with the Abilene funeral home and the Ottawa funeral home recently.

And those were certainly not very nice buildings, but the people were fantastic and very helpful.

And I got everything done.

I didn't feel um saddened by the buildings or anything.

The people were most helpful.

One particularly since we were putting my mother's ashes in Ottawa, and it was Thanksgiving week.

Uh, and the lady was going to be on vacation.

She got gave us you know her cell number, she said she'd come.

I mean, you know, this kind of thing.

I think the public service is much more important than the design of the building you're in, the office.

Yeah, that's that's where I am.

We're gonna be able to do that.

I appreciate the conversation and the feedback regarding uh the cemetery uh buildings.

That is certainly a conversation uh that we know we need to we owe you all um some additional concepts and some additional information on, and uh we will certainly have a dedicated uh work session on um those cemetery buildings when Aaron and his team are ready to bring that back.

Aaron, do you have an estimated timeline on that?

No.

Okay, so we do not have an estimated timeline on that.

Last year, so yeah, I think we could be moving forward with what we're going to do, and I think the discussion as to what kind of staffing we needed the cemetery could have taken place quite a few months ago.

But commissioner, this is not the purpose of tonight's No, I know, but I I'm appreciating I appreciate you raised.

This is a work session.

We're talking about how we're we've worked and that kind of thing.

Is there any other questions I can answer on my topics?

No, but I've often thought about bidding on painting the stripe down the middle of the road.

Yeah, that's quite expensive.

Unbelievably we we paint the entire city for about 25,000, and you couldn't paint points for 25,000 hired somebody.

Because the county always they spend a lot more on the road.

Well, they got a lot more roads.

Okay.

Um we've talked about that.

We've actually talked to the county about partnering.

Yeah, and we've talked to K-State lately about partnering.

Um I did have a uh a better paint truck in the CIP a couple years ago.

I got cut the next size up paint truck from what we have is about 450,000, and our paint trucks about 35,000.

So it's not a little step, but you get a much better product.

So we've stuck with what we have.

And can you can you find one on eBay?

Maybe I can get a snow plow snowblower with it too.

Two for one deal.

But yeah, it is incredibly expensive to paint.

It is aren't there contractors out there that paint stripes on roads?

Yeah, and they're all from Wichita and Kansas City, and they charge me a mobilization of about 15 grand to come here.

That's and really that's part of our problem.

So those trucks that they drive are CDL, you gotta have a CDL.

Well, by the time they drive from Kansas City, they can't paint that day.

So I've wasted a day in travel.

Well, that's probably five to six thousand dollars because I got seven people in three trucks.

Then they paint the next day, and then they got away because they can't drive back to Kansas City because they run out of hours, then they drive home the third day.

So it took me three days to paint one street.

And that's really the problem.

It would be very nice if we had a local company in Manhattan that could paint, and we just don't because it's so capital intensive.

Thank you, Brian.

If you have other questions, thank you.

I think this was very informative and helped give us a lot of context in terms of considering the contract we've been looking at for the last several months that we will continue to look forward.

Thank you.

Um is there any public comment?

Okay.

No, no, okay.

Nathan Golly, um, president of Walter's Morgan Construction, located at uh 5961 Corporate Drive here in Manhattan.

So just moved there and been part of this community for about 90 years, and what I wanted to focus on tonight, and I'm probably gonna say some things I probably shouldn't because it's coming from a disgruntled uh contractor, but to focus on the water and waste and the procurement uh by utilizing CMAR for it.

Um and the more I sat back there, the more probably irritated I got because we were not shortlisted for the project as you know, obviously Cost and Heavy's doing a project, but then I hear a couple commissioners talk about we're uh giving local preference.

We've been here for 80 years, almost a hundred years actually.

We've done the projects at the wastewater plant for the past 26 years, every major one of them.

And we we still did not make the short list for the CMAR project.

So I'm not quite sure being local is is helping.

And then you're uh your comment about hey, we have people in the community, good contractors, we can help grow by teaming up.

You had your opportunity.

You had your opportunity, and that didn't happen.

So I'm a little disgruntled with how we went about this project.

But I guess what I what bothered me was the consistency in it.

So we've done all the work out there, we weren't shortlisted, but then you had your staff come up here and present the team, the engineer to you, and state that the reason we selected this engineer was because of their vast knowledge of the wastewater plant.

And the contractor is crossland, great contractor, nothing against them.

Do you know the last time they worked for the public works?

You'd have to ask Randy, that's over at the wastewater plan.

Yeah.

I think that's a question.

Uh sir.

Please address your comments to the commission, and then if they want to direct staff to answer, we will.

All right, thank you.

I don't think they have.

So let's be consistent with what we're trying to do here when we pick a team.

Um then let's talk about the CMAR process.

I did talk to a couple people in the public works department about why CMAR.

I got two different answers, so I'm not 100% sure why we went CMAR on this.

Uh first time, I think, in this type of environment for this type of project in the water and waste.

So I can tell you what my thoughts are.

CMAR has a place in water and waste, it absolutely does.

You know, for me, it's collaboration, it's uh offsetting market volatility, and it's for decreasing time of construction.

A lot of these things that you've already been presented tonight.

But when those don't happen, it sets up for a bad project.

An example of this project is uh water and waste is different in that it's built in months, not in weeks.

Like vertical structures are more of a week project, and what I mean by that is when you procure things, door steel, it's quick.

Okay, it happens in weeks, these happens in months.

So uh items take 16 months to get, 18 months to get.

So if you're not procuring those items early, you're just delaying this job.

And we need delays jobs.

I'm sorry, we do have a three minute limit on uh comments.

I hear allow five more minutes.

I appreciate that.

Second, thank you.

Jarrett, call the roll call the roll, please.

I think one of these start in five minutes.

Commissioner McCollow.

Oh, I'm sorry, yes.

Commissioner Fox, yes, Commissioner Morrison, yes, Commissioner Vaughn Lennon.

Yes, Mayor Adam Chack.

Yes.

Motion passes.

Go ahead.

Okay, so it'll approve.

You have five minutes.

Thank you.

So when we're procuring these items, you have 16 months to get them on site.

Now, it's my understanding this project, even though it had the opportunity to do it, didn't take care of that.

Can you imagine procuring something 16 months ago and have it on site now?

How much money you'd save?

So, on top of that, it also drags out the timeline of the project.

So now you have a job that's gonna last you 24 to 36 months because nothing was pre-procured.

There's multiple other things that go into this project that were probably fumbled along the way, in my opinion.

Um, that has to do with time.

Another example is you in general.

The project was designed to 90%, roughly.

Then the construction manager put it out to bid.

Okay.

Then they were given a month for contractors to put a number together to give a construction manager.

But every contractor was told you need to hold that number for two to three, four months because we don't know if we're gonna get this yet.

Well, what would you do if I told you I need 5,000 gallons of diesel in four months?

Hold your price.

I don't know if I'm gonna buy it from you.

You can see where the numbers go.

So not only do we not procure early, lock in the dollars when it was cheaper, but now you've escalated the dollars, and now you haven't procured anything.

So when the job starts, you got a 24, 36 month job that you haven't, you know, you're waiting on all your equipment on.

Oh while your construction manager is gonna sit there and bill you for general conditions.

This job is simple, should have been done in 12 months, but I just don't quite understand the role.

If you're gonna do a CMAR, my opinion, do it do the right way.

Take advantage of what it can provide for this type of project.

My last example, City DeSoto from start to finish, brand new water plant, uh 40 million in less than three years from beginning to end.

And less than three years from beginning to end.

This is probably going to go close to four to five years for an $18 million plant.

You're going to spend $23 million for.

Anyway, that's all I had.

I appreciate your time.

If anybody has any more questions, you gotta know where to find them.

We've been here for 90 years.

So come out and visit.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Please sign your in over here.

Yep, thanks.

Given there's no one else in the room, I'll close public comment.

Commissioners, any last questions for uh anybody?

Director Johnson or last call for any questions.

Well so I'm just wondering if uh Danielle wants to speak to a couple of letters we've gotten here in the last day or two regarding uh one the city county county meetings, the other uh this letter from the Manhattan Urban Urban Area Planning Board wanting our thoughts on uh accessory dwellings and all that.

So when do we discuss all that?

Uh yeah, hold on.

Since this is a work session, yeah.

Uh yeah, you did receive a couple letters.

So the first letter that Commissioner Um Fox's reference is a letter that we received from the Riley County Commissioners indicating that they do not find value uh in the city-county-county meetings.

Um they think that having slide presentations and information sharing has not been beneficial uh in the last several months.

Uh they certainly recognize their uh complicity uh in participating and putting together those agendas.

However, they have indicated that they um are suspending their participation and hosting of those meetings indefinitely.

Um I have reached out to um Mr.

Kinsley, who is the uh county administrator for Potawatomi County to see how uh Potawatomi County commissioners um are also feeling.

I know that uh they typically um have not participated or hosted um as frequently as Riley County just because they have their meetings on Thursday, or just to get over here, and a lot of times that those conversations haven't been um necessarily uh pertinent uh to the folks in Potawatomi County.

However, as we start to look at uh our East Manhattan Gateway vision and building those relationships with Pottawatomi County, there have been a certain uh couple topics we've made a particular invitation to them.

So just kind of curious what their feedback has been on those, and I haven't heard back um from uh Mr.

Kinsley yet on that.

So um certainly disappointed.

Uh really felt like the last several months um that the city when it's our turn to host that we had put forward some fairly um pertinent topics um such as RHID, um electric vehicle preparedness.

Uh we recently had the 50-year transportation plan and speak to us.

We had an update um from the food council.

Uh we also uh talked about um East Manhattan Gateway, thought that those were really um good conversations.

Um Daniel, just um you're I think you're mixing a little bit the intergovernmental agendas with the city county-county agendas.

Was that not food council that we had come and do the presentation right before we had the East Manhattan Gateway presentation?

They did.

Um, I'm not remembering go ahead, please continue.

Yeah, so um and I think that might even be one of the concerns that the Riley County Commissioners had is that we hear it at intergovernmental um and then we hear it again at that um city-county-county meeting.

Um and so uh Jason, would you mind pulling up uh can you quickly pull up some of those agendas um that we've had just to verify what those topics are that we've discussed the last couple months?

I think that's important.

Um so I think that's one of their their concerns is that we've heard it already at the intergovernmental, and we know there's certainly different folks, different audiences, um, and you hear some of those topics a couple times.

So when uh you know, when it has been um the county's turn to host, it's my understanding, it has been uh in the past the tradition that whoever's turn it is to host is who puts together the agenda.

And so uh the last couple times that we have been um slated to host that meeting, the county commissioners have canceled it.

So um anyway, that's all I really had to say on that topic.

Well, those city county county.

I agree that I thought they were somewhat superfluous.

A couple of the topics were relevant and it was good to see it may be that we just need to be the invitor and have the elected invitees, mainly Pack County as East Edge comes along because they're the going to be the party that we really need to work with.

And that may not need to be monthly, maybe quarterly with them.

Yeah.

I I'm not sure where we're going on the Eastgate anyway, but they are the ones that we ought to be talking to, and maybe we set up a meeting and do it at most quarterly because the others were somewhat interesting, but it wasn't much enthusiasm in it that I could see.

So I don't I'm not offended that they said no.

Uh and you know, but maybe we ought to be more proactive and deal with Pack County on those issues when they really are things that need to be discussed.

Commissioner, I I disagree.

I d it it has been an issue for two the two years that I've been on the commission that Riley County Commissioners, in my opinion, have been rather distant and almost antagonistic, very disinterested.

We are part of Riley County, and I feel as if Riley County is now shaped like a donut that moves around Manhattan, and that we are not part of the discussion on topics that do uh impact the residents of this community.

Well, I don't think that's in disagreement.

Well, I my concept was because I haven't seen their participation, and I think we have to go with alone for a while until we have other issues.

Well, you know, for two years we've been talking about how to better engage with this particular county commission, and we've not made very much headway.

Uh and you know, I think getting the cold shoulder for the last uh number of months that they've been meant to be hosting is uh a clear signal that they're not interested.

But does that mean we give up on trying to forge a relationship with them?

Um perhaps we could move to a quarter and just invite them and and pot county.

Um I do think I'm very disappointed that they're choosing not to continue this relationship, because I think there's a lot of ways we could partner and even save some dollars for everybody.

But um one other thing I just want to put this out there.

Um the intergovernmental is always on a Monday, and of course that's almost impossible for the pot county commissioners to that's when they meet, and they're in Westmoreland.

And so I'm not suggesting we do this next time or anything, but maybe we should re-examine if there might be a better day of the week that would include them.

And you know, intergovernmental to me is bringing a all kinds of people together, and um I don't I'm not sure what's going on with the county.

I I think you're misinterpreting this letter.

I mean, they're not saying we don't want to have a relationship and they don't want to meet with us.

Like you said, we have an intergovernmental meeting involving them and us in the school district.

That's not what they're addressing in here.

They're addressing that other the city-county-county meeting.

That is just us at Riley County and Pott County, not the school district.

No, no, no, I'm that's what I refer.

Yeah, I'm referring to that one.

So I mean, we're still gonna have the intergovernmental meetings.

Yes, I agree.

But so I I don't think they're not wanting to.

I I think they have a point.

We kind of regurgitating the same information sometimes.

Well, considering they've not presented any information for the last six months.

They're not exact, and they acknowledge that in that letter, but they're not setting an example of what they would like to hear or what information they would like to give us or share with us and Pott County.

They're certainly not leading by example right now.

Uh I mean we are those are those are all topics of significant importance to all three, maybe not Seaco Park as important to Pot County, but all of the those topics are important to both entities.

And uh the feedback from them on these topics has uh been rather muted.

I'm sorry, Andrew, I think I interrupted you.

No, yeah, I was just I mean, I I definitely we need to continue to try to reach across to them.

Um hopefully we can come up with maybe a quarterly is maybe a better idea, but having some some way to we got serious issues that we're gonna have to deal with Pottawatomie County and Riley County in the future, so I would say just don't give up to our staff.

I don't I don't know if you all saw today's paper, but the county has put a moratorium on the consideration of data centers in the county for the county.

Um there was no discussion with us as a city commission to engage in that conversation.

Now that's not to say we know we have data center coming around the corner, but they have basically usurped our uh part of that conversation because the county wants to put regulations in place about the the location of data vicinity.

Are we going to be part of that conversation about the moratorium that they have implosed?

And are we going to be part of the discussion about what conditions need to be considered if we are approached to install a data center?

That's a discussion we ought to have at our next intergovernmental meeting.

But I don't know if it's I don't know if it's appropriate for intergovernmental in that um why wouldn't it be?

Because I don't know that the police department needs to be involved in that discussion.

I don't know that the Riley County Health Department needs to be involved in that discussion.

I think it is at a slightly higher level at the county and the city.

And okay, why do they not want it?

And you know.

So I'd agree with that.

And I was also so we just don't forget about it.

Larry's original question too, also talked about the um the housing letter that we got too.

So we do need to not we need to not forget about that one yet, also.

Yeah, uh, sorry, I just wanted to really quick um for the la I know we talked about Seaco Park uh last fall because we were talking about putting together um that survey that we did regarding um the indoor aquatics, etc.

But I did want to quickly just put together a list um for the for the commissioners and for folks um just to kind of see where we were at um November, I believe, uh holiday, December holiday.

I think it's fairly typical just because of the way um that fourth Thursday falls um Thanksgiving and then um the Christmas holiday or I'm sorry, the winter holiday as well.

Um January um and then um this was canceled.

So and we can get a more comprehensive list of the things that we've talked about as well.

Um, but back to the other letter that you all received uh from the planning board.

So one of the topics that has been um discussed and talked about um for several years now is accessory dwelling units.

So um accessory dwelling units are um think if you have a detached garage and you want to have um an apartment above uh your detached garage, or even if you wanted a pool house which would have some sort of bedroom bathroom, uh kitchen.

Um I'm not exactly sure what the Manhattan Development Code defines as a necessary dwelling unit.

So I'm kind of pulling from some previous examples and experience that I've had there, but we can certainly get that to you.

But um, just this idea that there is an additional living space on one lot.

Um so right now um those are not currently allowed at all in the MDC.

So currently they are not allowed at all in the MDC.

Um, as we've been having um conversations about affordable housing and workforce housing, um accessory dwelling units are a topic that has come up.

Um it was referenced in our housing study.

It is something that the planning board has had conversations about, and something that they would be interested in having the commission direct staff to start doing some research.

Um with a lot of things that we have in our community.

There are um pros and cons, opportunities, challenges uh with anything.

Um previous commissions had not been particularly particularly interested in uh pursuing uh conversations about accessory dwelling units.

But then some of those challenges that are associated with accessory dwelling units are parking challenges, increasing density in neighborhoods, and concerns about the character of neighborhoods, as well as conversations that this commission has had about even in their short time about short-term rentals.

So a lot of times those accessory dwelling units are used as short term rentals or Airbnbs or VRBOs, right?

So the planning board has put together a letter asking you all to direct staff to start putting together some research and so and some direction.

Since we're not taking action, we're commenting, right?

Absolutely.

I think we need to have staff.

You and the development people say what are the pros and cons and what are the reasonable restrictions that would have to be necessary.

A lot of on east of North Manhattan, there's already parking problems because of our parking requirements for apartments and other rentals.

And so I think that's got to be a part of it.

And as far as I'm concerned, I don't know I have any expertise to give guidance on what should be.

I have opinions and observations, which I may not be excited about, but I think that's something that has to come from staff as they're listening to the planning board, I assume.

And they you've listed a half a dozen real concerns and questions that we ought to have and see if there's any ground before they spend tons of time, but is that even the concept that they can support?

Would be my position.

Um gave us a lot of information on it, so maybe we could research what they said, you know, and um it was uh Gary Coates' class.

Uh so you know, I I see no reason why we shouldn't look at it.

I concur.

Okay.

Oh so just my thoughts on it when I think of accessory dwelling units, uh, you're really just impacting mostly single family neighborhoods that are zoned single family, and single family neighborhoods are should be just that.

Uh most of us that live in those neighborhoods don't want to see a neighbor with a rental in the backyard.

Um and also you're as you mentioned, you're just encouraging more Airbnbs, VRBOs, whatever, which we already have some issues with that, so I don't really want to encourage more.

Um so I mean, just getting this letter.

I I just my my thoughts were really kind of negative towards it because I don't want to see the single-family neighborhoods negatively impacted by additional dwelling units.

I think we need to think more broadly about what who might occupy these units.

Um I don't want to go into too much detail, but I happen to have a friend who is living in one of those garage apartments uh, and she is the mother-in-law of the homeowner, the mother and mother-in-law of the homeowners.

Um what happens when the mother-in-law dies?

Then probably their kid will move into that space.

Uh I don't know.

I can't answer that.

I also happen to have friends whose uh son-in-law is disabled, and it has been increasingly difficult for his wife to care for him on his own on her own, and they are contemplating building an ADU.

They live elsewhere.

I'm just using this as an example of um the appropriateness of this type of construction.

Um in my own family, we had a uh uh one of my aunts lived in uh a mother-in-law unit, the helm was constructed with an L to accommodate uh the grandmother living in there.

And so I think that you know we have to think that there are we have to be open to the fact that there are other circumstances besides rentals, besides short-term advantage.

Um it's thorny, it's not an easy uh, it's not an easy consideration, but there are uh I I don't want to throw the baby out the bathwater before we do have some guidance from staff and we look at some other experiences.

There are also places that are using um ADA ADU housing communities on a couple of acres of land to address some of their the problems or the issues with unhoused individuals.

Is that something that we want to be open to?

I'm just saying I I think we've all acknowledged that we are not experts in this.

We do have staff who follow this when they go to professional conferences, when they talk to their colleagues.

I mean, I'm definitely interested in like newer developments if ADUs going into newer, if that's kind of where we want the direction we want to go.

Some of the older neighborhoods, I'm I'm concerned that it may not work well, but we'll see.

Well, we will dust off.

Oh, sorry, Commissioner Fox, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

Well, again, I certainly understand Susan's comments about family members, a true mother-in-law's quarters.

Uh, but as Commissioner Morrison said, uh, mother-in-laws do tend to die uh you know eventually.

Well, mine didn't have to be a good idea.

Mine did so uh anyway, things change, those those units become and those are one of those things that's really hard to write into an ordinance.

So uh we will dust off previous research um on this.

We will dust that off uh and we will look at our work session schedule in the next few months or so.

Um I will share with you all the next few work sessions will be fairly budget heavy.

Um, and so um, but we will try to get this um within the next um couple meetings or so.

Uh not within the next couple meetings.

Give us probably later in the summer, uh, just because of budget and all the other things that we have going in.

This is um if we want to do some more um additional research, and then uh we will be prepared to have a robust discussion.

Um so again, just want to make sure for folks who are in the audience um that the commission is not considering ADUs at this time, they are directing staff to uh start researching accessory dwelling units based on the planning board's letter that they submitted.

So thank you.

Okay.

I do not have um any other updates this evening, so okay.

I move we adjourn.

All in favor, please say aye.

Thank you.