Welcome to the City Council Oversight Committee meeting for Thursday, January 8th.

I have a hard stop at 5 15.

And I would like to remind everybody to not speak unless you're recognized.

And we're gonna keep it a tight schedule.

First on the agenda is discussion regarding amendments to the A Norman Agricultural Residential and Urban Reserve Language.

And sorry, uh Laura Hoggett with the planning department.

We're gonna do items one and two together, if that's okay.

Yes.

Do you need to read it or is it?

Um sure.

And then we'll discuss regarding updating the AIM Norman map to include the new term pike alignment as announced by the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority.

Alright.

So uh we were approached by council to look at um some amendments to the AIM language in um the urban reserve category.

Um since AIM's adoption, the 30-acre requirement has kind of been a contentious topic.

So um after adoption, I think a lot of people started to realize oh, we've had this land for a long time, we thought we could subdivide it into 10 acres for our kids or what have you, and now they cannot.

So we prepared some uh suggested changes, and we'll just see what you guys think and go from there.

So um, in other areas of the document, there well, I'll back up a little bit.

So in the agricultural residential land use category, hello.

Um there's a minimum lot size of 10 acres, and there is an allowance to go down to two acres if you do a planned unit development where 65% of the total area is reserved as open space, um, and that's termed as cluster development in some other areas.

So we wanted to just have some continuity in the document.

Um, and just to clarify, that's if if you had just to make it easy, math, if you had uh a hundred acres, sixty-five percent of that would have to stay as open space, so 65 acres.

The rest could be developed down to two acre lots.

Um, and then in site design, we thought it would be a little clearer to say when utilizing cluster development drainage waste should be properly buffered.

And there is a key at the bottom.

I should have mentioned that first.

But new text is red and underlined, and then deleted text would be the light gray color.

Um so in urban reserve.

This um we were kind of trying to make sure that the setup like of each um section within urban reserve was the same as other sections.

So we kind of took some language from agricultural residential and moved them over to urban reserve um because they are very similar, but urban reserve has some kind of extra qualifiers to develop.

Um so we just wanted to have the same language in book when talking about minimum lot size of 10 acres and the cluster development.

Um building types, it's all it said was large lot single unit homes.

So we added with the allowance for ADUs because they can do that now, and then um some of the language from AR that says you can have barns, stables, um, and kind of like agricultural uses as well.

So we would be taking out the uh minimum lot size of 30 acres section, and that would be replaced with what we went over before with the 10 acres, and every other section has the minimum lot size in the description and context, so we're just trying to keep them similar.

Um site design 10 acre subdivisions are appropriate, and then uh to keep the terminology the same.

Cluster development should avoid large parcels without access to existing streets and these things.

Um we wanted to have the same drainage wave buffering language as the other sections.

Yes.

So um we're not talking like septics for cluster developments, they have to be on water and sewer to be developed.

So in the 2045 character area, I'm glad you brought that up.

Um the policies of the 2045 reserve area, you must be contiguous with existing development, and you have to extend services to your property.

Okay.

So that's in the character area, and the um student committee wanted to do it that way.

So it can't be changed because you can't request to be removed from a character area.

Okay, so thank you.

So those are our language changes.

I didn't put every section on the slides because that would be the last.

But um, those are the suggested suggested changes.

Um but it's up to you guys if you want to move forward with it or change anything or not do 10 acres really, whatever.

Council member that far.

So just full disclosure, I was the one that asked for this.

Uh immediately as soon as I took the seat, I was approached by multiple individuals who essentially gave me the same scenario that she brought up, stating that they had oh so many acres, 30, 40, 50 acres, whatever, and they couldn't subdivide it anymore down to 10 acres to give to their children.

And that was the spark behind this 10-acre rule change.

Um were you able to work with the planning department on the what they're presenting today?

Yes, ma'am.

I have met with them a few times over the last couple of months to make sure that the language was like the I they had the language part, but the idea was correct on what we were aiming for.

And then for your concerned constituents, um, have you communicated these changes and got any feedback?

Uh not yet.

This is exactly what they were asking for, though, back to the original 10-acre rule.

And so as long as they could one was specifically he they had 30 acres and they wanted to divide it out between their two sons, and so that was this would meet that, and after today, my goal was to call both of them.

Appreciate that.

All right, okay.

And then on the second item was to update all of the maps and the aim master plans with the current alignment um from OTA.

So they released a new proposed alignment.

I'm not sure if it's final or not, but in September.

So we didn't do every single map because that would be a lot of maps in case we don't change it.

But this is uh an example of what a map would look like.

So this is our land use map.

Is that in the packet?

It was not in the packet, but we just got it today.

But it will be um pushed out now.

Um my other question.

So with the alignment as the term OTA is going to place it.

Does that change anything that AIM had uh considered when so it's all the same densities and yeah, nothing else would change on the land use map because the proposed alignment?

Uh council member Nefar?

I was just wondering uh if they had contacted the city or something else because I've checked their websites and went back over their most recent meeting, uh, which was I want to say Tuesday, and they have not officially decided or started declaring uh taking lands or anything of that sort.

And so the exact alignment is still unknown.

They have a proposed and that's as far as it goes.

Yeah, so we um sorry, I shouldn't mention there's a note under the maps in the plans that says um we will show the most up-to-date information we have from OTA.

So um GIS grabbed what they had on their website as of today.

Okay.

All right.

Any other questions?

Okay.

Oh, Beth would like to council member.

I apologize for coming in late, and because I did, I just wanted to make sure that this was said if it had been mentioned.

It's in your staff reports, but when we're talking about um altering the 30-acre language back to 10, you'll probably remember when we brought the the plan for approval, there were ordinances with it.

And so section 30, one section in uh chapter 30 of our code was changed to implement that 30-acre rule.

It's just a little parenthetical that references 30 acres for the urban reserve land use.

What we would do in order to make that consistent with these is bring that back in an ordinance because that would have to be an ordinance, uh, while the rest of it would be resolution, and we would just strike that parenthetical.

Okay.

Um so does that kind of cover the both agenda items?

Okay.

Um are there any other questions about these two?

Okay, well, I guess uh so we wouldn't we see this on uh the agenda for a voting meeting.

Well, I guess I would ask first uh do we want to bring this to full council before we like a study session, please conference, please.

Yeah, I think that would be good.

Um especially since the mayor isn't in here with us.

Right, okay.

So I can get with the city clerk and and figure out when we can get it on an agenda, but I just think it would be better if we did that before we took it to planning commission and we would have to advertise and so we might see a study session slash council conference this month and probably the end of this month.

I'll see if we can get on the end of this month.

I don't know what their agenda is at this point.

All right, thank you.

Sorry.

Item number three is a discussion of possible ways to encourage public feedback earlier in the process when creating tax increment finance districts.

Is it I think it's Catherine?

We're gonna grab her real quick.

Yes.

That's fine.

We're gonna speak.

Yeah, I haven't heard some of them.

Okay, okay.

Discussion.

Which one?

We already did one and two.

Okay.

So I'll Jane and then leave and was like sorry.

We're gonna add a clip here quick.

So the text serves like tell Brenda said I was like, oh yeah, I gotta go.

Okay.

Just some fun reading material.

I'd like to give you something else to read because we don't have enough.

Um so uh I don't know if you've done any introduction on this item, but uh no, we just got off the agenda item.

Okay, um, so council member Grant and I talked about this um in December, I think, about um the discussion in the community about uh tax increment financing districts and how they get adopted and and how you know sometimes when we get to the end of the process, then you're having your public hearings and all those things, and it's harder to influence the outcome and uh the product.

So, how could we uh talk about involving the public a little more earlier in the process?

Um, so I wanted to talk because we do have several new members.

Um, talk just briefly.

I have a lot of slides, but I'll go through them fast about TIFFs and how they work and why why we can do them.

Um it comes from a constitutional provision which authorized the legislature to adopt laws allowing municipalities to provide incentives, exemptions, or other relief from taxation, but only in certain areas.

Um and then the local development act was adopted in 1992, allowing municipalities to implement this constitutional provision through creation of tax increment finance districts in areas that are unproductive, undeveloped, underdeveloped, or bellight.

Uh this is the purpose of TIST TIFF districts from the Local Development Act.

Um it's a tool to be used in areas where investment development and economic growth are difficult, but could be possible with TIFF assistance.

Uh they're used to generate new employment opportunities, attract investment to areas of need throughout the city.

Uh those three terms they are reinvestment areas, historic preservation areas, and enterprise areas are actually areas that qualify by virtue of that designation for a TIF.

Um, and then to generate new residential and commercial investment that enhances the quality of life, education, and stability.

So a TIFF is is not a new tax, it's essentially taking the growth in taxes in an area and allocating that to particular project costs.

Uh that increment can include ad valorum and or sales tax, and it could include 100%, 50%, 25%, whatever is determined.

So oftentimes you'll see where a TIFF maintains the current funding, so whatever property tax or sales tax is generated already, continues to go to the tax and jurisdictions.

And then that growth might be split where the city retains 50% of the property taxes, which we don't normally retain any any part of two fund project costs, while the 50% of the growth goes to the tax and jurisdictions.

And those percentages vary based on the project and the needs for funding.

So this is kind of how that works.

Your base assessed value, which is that that's what it was generating when the TIFF is created.

The increment is whatever the growth is in that revenue, and that is what's allocated towards project cost.

And at the end of the 25 years, all of those revenues then go back to the normal taxing jurisdictions.

As I said, TIFFs can be used in these three areas.

Those are designated typically by the state, enterprise areas and historic preservation areas.

Reinvestment areas or areas requiring public improvements, and there's some specific criteria there for that.

You go through a process to designate a TIFF district, and this is all set by the Local Development Act.

So as we talk through ways to increase public input, it's not replacing any of this, but it would be supplementing this and adding things to this process.

Typically we will come to council and ask for direction when a proposal is made for a TIFF to go ahead and move forward with the project plan, and we'll bring that back to a statutory review committee.

Local development act, and I'll talk a little bit about that in a minute.

Uh sets out who's on that committee and what their role is, goes to planning commission, and then you have two public hearings and a council vote.

The project plan has to contain, you know, where the project area is, that's the areas where you can spend money to do projects, and then where the increment is generated from the increment district.

You have to describe generally the public improvements, private investment, and estimated public revenues to accrue, and put it in a list of project costs, how to be financed, those kind of things.

Any changes in zoning and the master plan have to be does uh set out in that plan, and then you have typically the city manager is the person in charge of implementation and the authorization of a public entity to carry out the project plan.

And the TIFFs in Norman, we have the Norman Tax Increment Finance Authority, our public trust for TIFFs, and that's who's typically the pub serving as the public entity to carry out the project plan for us.

The statutory review committee has to meet and make a recommendation to council on the project plan.

And this occurs prior to public hearings and adoption by council and the public by the planning commission.

So membership is set by statute.

These are not necessarily going to be people who are directly impacted by the type of development or anything like that.

It's more uh representatives of the taxing jurisdictions who are going to have their their growth and taxes allocated toward these project costs.

So you have a representative of the city who serves as the chairperson, and our our practice has been for the mayor to serve in that role.

Uh, someone designated by planning commission, and then our taxing jurisdictions, Cleveland County, the health department, the library, Norman Public Schools, and more Norman.

When they have their first meeting, they then appoint from a list of seven people provided by the chairperson, three at-large members.

If it's the retail-based TIFF, there's got to be someone in that at-large position in one of those at large positions who has some retail background or connection.

And so that that committee looks at the project plan, they look at the economic analysis, and then they make a recommendation to council, and all of that then is taken forward for the public hearings and planning commission.

Um here's what they have to find specifically.

Um the district is eligible for a TIFF.

Uh, the plan and project will have a financial impact.

What does that look like?

Um, and they have to include analysis that's used to project revenues over the life of the project plan and the effect on the taxing entities.

And they can recommend it be approved, denied, approved, subject to conditions, um, and then that goes forward to council.

And if council makes any substanti substantial changes in what they propose, it has to go back to the review committee again.

What's that document called?

I haven't seen that for the which document document that they put together for their findings.

Yeah, this is the document, it's just the position.

Yeah, TIP member Bruce, I'd like to remind you that we're being recognized, council member Bruce.

Council member.

Sorry, I jumped ahead too.

Um so typically that comes to council in the form of a resolution where they make their recommendation.

If they want to set out conditions, they would put that in the resolution as well.

And then uh the analysis would be included with that, or or they could be relying on analysis that's included with the project plan.

We do typically do some analysis that's part of the project plan as well.

Uh when it gets to planning commission, you know, this often involves changes to zoning or the land use plan, and and uh so planning commission reviews the project plan in light of those things and makes a recommendation to council as well, and that's an opportunity for public comment.

And that's really the first opportunity.

I don't think we've had a statutory review committee that's that's provided for public comment.

So this is really the first opportunity for the public to comment on the plan, at least in a formal meeting.

Then you have two public hearings.

The first is just to provide the information and answer questions, and then the second is for people to come and tell you what they think about it.

Um they have very specific notice requirements to make sure that property uh owners within a radius of the of the district have notice, but also the general public has notice.

And so we go through that process, and then it gets to council.

Um and so council gets all of the minutes of the statutory review committee, the planning commission, uh, the public, you know, you'll you would sit through the public hearing, so you would have that information, and then you'll have an ordinance, just like any other ordinance, first and second reading, with second reading being the opportunity for the public to comment.

Um, they really get two opportunities, both the planning commission and council to comment.

But the criticism we we hear is that as I said before, you don't often have an opportunity for public input earlier in the process.

When we think about potential upcoming TIFFs that you guys are looking at, Griffin, downtown, adjacent neighborhoods to Griffin or in the case of downtown, the businesses that are involved there may have more direct impacts based on whatever's proposed in the project, and so that might be an opportunity where you want to bring some some citizens in that are impacted and get some impact or get some input earlier in the process.

Um PIF, the original in 2006 did this.

There was a 17-member citizen TIFF committee.

Um I went back and pulled the roster of the committee.

Our files are don't go back quite that far just to get their minutes, uh, but we we had those at one time.

I've listed to takes at these meetings as well.

Um we had a sitting council member on the committee, a former council member and a former mayor.

We had uh three local business representatives, three attorneys.

We had a city of Norman employee from the police department, which was interesting, um, an OU representative, someone from the OU School of Architecture, and then we had three or four other citizens that served on the committee, and so there was broad input.

This isn't one because it was vacant land where it was impacting people living there currently or doing business there currently, but it did get broad input, and they actually interestingly grew the size of that original request for that TIFF and decided to bring in the retail component and uh the conference center.

So initially the request was just for more public infrastructure, public improvements, and and this committee actually uh dreamed a little bigger than OU had and and wanted to bring in these other components, uh, which was probably not how anyone thought that would go.

Um there that they were not unanimous in their decision.

I do recall a um a minority report uh that was filed so that they weren't able to come to a unanimous decision on what to recommend, but they at least had that committee to look at it and and kind of get some input from different members of the community.

The other thing we hear is is we don't have really beyond the local development act our own procedure or requirements for how we accept these proposals, how they get submitted, what information is required, how they're evaluated, and so I know our focus today is really more on the public input piece, but I wanted to throw that out there because some of the things I've given you talk about process and a lot of cities require an application that sets out the benefit of the project, uh the but for requirements.

We need this assistance because uh we can't do the project without it, you know, that kind of thing.

And so that might be something that council wants to consider, so you have the same information every time you're looking at at a proposal uh by which to evaluate it.

And I think ultimately, if council wants to move forward with something, this is a process, both the public input piece and just the overall procedure that could be codified in our ordinances or adopted by resolution as a policy of the council, so that that would be sort of more set out there in stone in terms of how we handle these proposals when they come forward.

We we have several right now, as I said, we're can we're talking about, and those are really city initiated.

So probably not an application to ourselves in that case, but we it would give us the you know guidelines for information that we need to make sure we have for you all as you as you continue to discuss this.

Um I was going to say was it Texas or I'm sorry, Fort Worth that had like the dollar amount that uh applicants had to pay.

Yes, there's an application fee in Fort Worth, I believe.

Um that's really to cover the cost of the city's review.

It's it's not like most of our fees, it's not you know it's on page seven, yeah, gonna cover every single thing, but but we wanna be able to have those funds to do our own review.

Um you know, it may be that the council wants an independent economic analysis done, and so that's that would be covered with that would help uh fund some of that.

How much does the analysis cost?

Depends on the size of the project.

Okay, um, I didn't get a chance.

I wanted to look back and see what we did an independent analysis for the arena proposal.

Um it was under 25,000, I'm sure, but that was a really large project.

If some of these smaller projects might not cost as much.

Um, and it might be something where you set up the overall project plan, but when someone comes forward to request development assistance, maybe that's when you look at what they're gonna generate and do an economic analysis then because the increment that they're going to generate is often tied to what they might receive in development assistance.

And currently we don't have an application fee or anything like that.

No, no, and we we've only had um two really, I think, that have been adopted by council that came forward from outside parties.

Uh Campus Corner back in 2001 or two, I think was really a joint effort of the city and the campus corner merchants association.

Um Center City was a city-led effort, uh, but University North Park, uh, the original in 2006, and then the arena uh in 2024, right?

Um those were both proposed by by the university.

So we didn't have an application for those.

Both of those, you know, came forward to council and and were handled uh by council and through this the statutory process.

And uh it's been a minute since December.

Did Fort Worth have a citizen process?

Uh I don't think so.

They had a review process for staff, they had some um language in here about um tying into some of their other economic development goals for small businesses, affordable housing, things like that.

Uh, but certainly I think in our procedure, we could we could fit that in early in the process, you know, after the proposals received, fed it by staff, we've got the economic analysis, you know, you could you could appoint a citizen committee to look at it before the project plan is drafted.

Um, or some cities have committees that look at specific projects within a TIFF district, and so it wouldn't be the overall TIFF, but when someone comes forward and says, I need assistance to complete this project, uh, then that committee meets and reviews it.

And then I was gonna say also page seven, seven project criteria, um, use of TIFF proceeds.

I like this sentence because I think it would address some of the criticisms I've heard, and it's TIFF district proceeds cannot be used to support exclusively private purposes.

Um is that something that whether it was written or not now, like our TIFFs are pretty much public private, like they're not exclusively private.

Right.

I mean, typically they do have some public component.

The private component is called assistance and development financing, and there's not a restriction on how much of the the authorized project costs could be dedicated to that.

So it's possible it could be more private than public under the statute, but um certainly that's something that council could discuss.

I would just recommend that we can't predict every project that might come forward, and so you want to leave yourself some flexibility if something really great comes through that it's got community support and council support.

Uh we don't want to have to just amend the process to accommodate it.

We want to leave some flexibility for those kind of projects to be considered.

I also think the small business firm commitment toward the project was interesting in the Texas language.

Someone's NAT time is lacking out there.

And then I also like the affordable housing requirements.

That's on page nine.

It says as authorized by and in accordance with section 311 Texas tax code.

The city council hereby delegates the authority to set an affordable housing policy by resolution of the respective TIFF district board for those districts with projects and financing plans that allow TIF funding in support of affordable housing.

Yeah, and when you think about uh Griffin, that might be an opportunity for some affordable housing or workforce housing where you would want to tie a policy to that to make sure that when projects come forward or some set aside for that kind of housing.

Um that and then that's another thing I wanted to point out.

Some cities, and we've done this with center city, adopt a policy guide specifically for each TIF.

We we haven't done it for each TIF, we've done it for center city because it was anticipating more assistance and development financing.

Um and so we have a policy guide that helps us know how to implement that for that uh particular TIFF, but we haven't had those on others, and that's something that could also be done to just consistent policy guides for each TIFF district.

Right, right, because each one will have different goals, so it makes sense to do something specific for each district, and so that might be something to consider also.

And I like that too, because that lets people who are interested in developing in the district know that what they can do versus what they think they can do.

Yeah, council member Bruce.

Thank you.

The um typically what's the ratio as far as who's proposing uh TIFF.

Yeah, is it like 60% private party come into a city saying, hey, I got this great deal for you.

40% really be a city driving it.

Yeah, it really depends.

Um for Norman, we've had two that were proposed by OU and then two that were initiated by the city.

Um for uh Oklahoma City, they set up TIFFs proactively, not in response to proposal typically, uh, but they allow for proposals to come forward for assistance and development financing once the TIF TIF is adopted.

Um, and they do quite a few where there's that private developer coming in and requesting assistance.

We have been more public infrastructure based in most of ours, but um certainly I'd heard that Oklahoma City does that.

They they use TIF all the time, very sizes for their projects.

They do really, yeah.

I mean a lot.

They they have quite a few.

I I looked at the count today, I can't think of what it is.

Tulsa has quite a few as well.

Um, and the way they do it is is strategic.

You know, when they were trying to turn Oklahoma City around, I can't remember when you moved to Oklahoma, but you might have been here at the beginning of the turnaround for downtown Oklahoma City.

Um they were really strategic about where they adopted them.

They had one really large project area over downtown, and then they adopted separate increment districts depending, you know, on different projects.

So Devon uh tower got was part of an increment district, and that funds certain things.

Um so they've been pretty strategic about it.

But they um typically do uh pay as you go TIFFs, so they don't issue debt most of the time.

Usually uh they're looking at the increment that your project is generating, and that will be returned to you as it as it's generated, uh which is a good protection for the for the city.

Um but they they have used it quite a bit.

Um, I was also gonna ask about the Kansas uh OAS uh resolution in section four procedure.

I thought it was interesting.

Um I don't know if we have this, but upon review of the TIF application, the city may require, and the applicant must furnish upon request further information in order to clarify the submittal.

Does that mean we could ask for studies and impact analysis?

Yeah, we typically do that.

Um and we we have we rely on them to provide that.

We haven't really had a situation where they said no, we're not going to do that because there has to be some justification that shows what they're gonna generate, but all of that's helpful so that from the beginning, everyone's on the same page of what might be required.

And then another thought with that is um, you know, there could be a conflict, and you know, because they want to get their project approved.

Uh is it standard practice for us to do like an independent analysis of their work to make sure that it actually checks out?

Yeah, it's so it depends on in practice, it's dependent on the project.

Um the two that we've initiated not so much because we were we felt good about what we had that that we had.

Um the original UNP, Dr.

Alexander Holmes with OU did projections.

Um I don't think he was necessarily working for the OU Foundation.

I think I'm not sure who who employed him to do that, but we did regularly compare revenue that was coming in to what his projections were.

Um with the arena project, we had a report from the Department of Commerce, which um uh NEDC paid for.

We had a report from um another company that the developer paid for, and then we looked at those and saw there might be an a negative impact to some sales tax.

There might be some issues with sales tax outside of the district, and so we um contracted with a firm to just do that work for us to look dig deeper into that, and so in that case, we it was a small contract, we were able to get Daryl to sign it and move pretty quickly to get that analysis done.

So council had the information.

Would it be advisable to when we have projects that are brought to us from outside entities to make that a part of the process just to double check their work?

Yeah, I think it's good to do our own economic analysis.

Um we are typically gonna have a different concern than a developer.

They're concerned about is this project gonna generate enough money for the assistance I'm requesting.

Uh we're concerned about is it going to generate enough to pay for the cost of the district, and how's it going to impact the city sales tax outside of the district?

And so doing our own analysis allows us to sort of um weigh in and make sure the inputs into that analysis cover the what we need to know from it.

Is that something we can put in policy?

Um, I would like to do that for.

I mean, like we have a TIFF district master plan where we envision areas, but I can still see somebody coming forward in the future, and maybe they don't want to develop in those areas to have something else.

Um I think it would be a good idea to double check their work.

Yeah, and and you can do that.

Um, you know, people can come in and they don't have to be part of a larger TIFF district, they could ask for TIFF just for their property.

Oh, and so that's something where you're really gonna want to be sure about the revenues because you're gonna be promising to give some of that increment back.

Yeah, council member Bruce.

I would imagine there's a best in class for municipalities, governments for internal evaluation packages.

I would imagine there is finding that entity that uh educate the municipality with the framework.

Yeah, I mean that would be if you're in the if you're you know if you do a lot of these like Hogan City and say, hey, look, we gotta invest in this.

Yeah, does that make sense?

Yeah, um, and there are a lot of firms out there that do it.

Um, and that do it well.

I wish I could remember the name of the firm we used most recently, but not higher now, but have your own internal guy that really does an assessment for that or okay.

Yeah, it might have been hired out, but I also want that internal assessment as a double check to check the numbers and the assumptions behind those numbers.

So, okay, I'm I'm I'm on solid ground about what I think may happen.

Yeah, that guy just retired we're gonna need we're gonna need someone.

That's a good point.

It's we have someone internal too who can who can serve as a check, and we definitely work closely with finance um through every single TIF that's been considered to look at the impacts independently, but then also to review whatever we're receiving from other parties.

If if what I've been told about Oklahoma City is true, they they have to have someone in house do they internal analysis?

Yeah, I would think so.

They have a pretty um they have an attorney that only does TIFFs, and and she's probably not the only one, honestly, and then they have someone in finance, and that's their focus as well.

So I'm sure they have someone who's dedicated just to doing those type of analyses.

Um I was gonna say I noticed the Kansas TIFF administration service fee is a five percent versus a flat rate in the Fort Worth.

Um I I'm curious about that.

Uh, because when you have a very large TIFF like the arena, um, but you would think about how much time is being spent on from staff to administer that.

Is five percent uh pretty depends on the size of the project for the arena?

That's probably too there.

Okay, gotcha.

If you're doing five percent of six hundred million, what about uh you know a four million dollar TIF in center city?

Yeah, um I mean I'd have to look at the it is time consuming to do these, but it's also part of our job, so we'd have to look at the time and see you know how that if it meant 2% for Norman versus and I will say typically when you when we bring a project forward, we do have a line item to cover some of the costs that we incur in adopting the TIFF.

If it doesn't get adopted, we we don't recover those costs, but uh we do have that line item in uh I think all of our TIFFs, the arena, this center city, the original UNP as amended.

Um prop.

I don't know about the campus corner for sure, but I would be surprised if it didn't include that.

Um so we do try to capture our the costs we expend on outside council, outside um economic analysis and things um within the TIFF so that some of those project costs, some of those increments being generated come back and reimbursed the city for those costs.

Yeah, section five and the fees that's interesting interesting as well, because it's like five percent or five thousand, whichever is less.

Do a time of submittal of the application.

The other thing I liked uh with this Kansas one was reapplication fees for substantial changes, will be charged at the same rate as the schedule shown above.

Um which would probably cover the cost, you know, associated with looking at something that could be is it doesn't say, but like is it 50% is considered substantial or 30%?

Well, under our statute, uh it's five percent before a uh change to project plan has to come back through the whole process with the statutory review committee and all that.

So um five percent in cost or five percent in area, okay.

So I don't know if I haven't read the Kansas Act that authorizes TIFS to know if that's tied to the act or if that's just something they've determined on their own for their fees, but but that's something we could do if we're wanting to make sure that for all the time we spend on this, we're getting our cut, you know, staff time covered.

Yeah, all right.

So I I gave you all this so that you could look at it and I really think this is the start of a probably a longer discussion.

Um not just for public comment but process.

Um couple of these things I gave you were from the um governmental finance officers association, GFOA.

Um, and they have some good general information, you know, they have to be careful because that goes out to all 50 states and the laws are different in every state, but um, they do have some good sort of best practice information, as did the Council of Development Finance Agency, so that's just something to look at.

Um, and then of course the couple policies there, and there's a lot out there.

Um we can definitely find another recommended practice is the packet you're talking about.

Yeah, yeah, the first three articles are really more along the line of best practices.

Yeah, I see building consensus.

This is why redevelopment can be exciting.

It also triggers an emotional response from the community, particularly for developments that create transformational changes, which I think our TIF district master plan kind of envisions that um yeah, okay.

Well, I agree.

I do think it is the start of a longer discussion, and I appreciate uh looking into different cities and how they're doing it.

Yeah, so does anybody have questions?

I don't know if you followed the story of Edmund about it's in foreclosure or not a TIFF, but a project, I guess that is.

Yeah, and I don't know all the details or what else going on with it, but um I don't know, just maybe something to whatever might have gone wrong if there's anything to learn from it.

Yeah, and I I definitely want to see their development agreement and see you know, if they were I'm assuming they were um only paying increment that because it was generated, so that's not the city hasn't necessarily lost that uh lost funding, but they they lost that opportunity.

Um curious to hear from their city attorney and see.

I saw that this week.

A campus, they're trying to develop a campus corner to connect you to that in downtown Edmund.

So I don't it's in that area and it's like a mixed use building, it's not a big giant development, it's kind of a little thing, but it was just kind of an interesting little like closed.

Yeah, so that one's interesting.

I'll look into that.

Yeah.

Could we maybe come back in March oversight and revisit, like give some time to digest, and those of us running, I'm sure we'll get near full on the doors about TIFFs.

Um way or another, probably so um but I would like to revisit and keep it going through the process, um, especially as we hone in on a TIFF district master plan, which just out of curiosity, will we be talking about any of uh those projects we talked about coming out?

I don't think anything's calendared yet, but it's only we've only got a few things scheduled out in January and a little bit in February.

So um I think we probably should type do this first and then um pick up where we left off with the district TIFF district master plan.

Yeah.

Um just that way when we get to the point where we're starting to do like actually form a statutory review committee and whatnot, we we have a process that um people will have some kind of input and we can get our costs covered and have a note for affordable housing and all the things that we would like to see for the city of Norman.

I definitely think there's time the way things are moving right now to do that before the other two move forward.

Okay, sounds good.

Um are there any other questions?

All right, seeing none, I'm gonna say.