And we are recording.

Okay.

Welcome everybody to the March 24th Heritage Preservation Commission meeting.

Before we call to order, we start each meeting with a 15-minute open public comment period.

This is an opportunity for the public to comment to the commission regarding items that do not have a public hearing on today's agenda.

Each speaker has up to four minutes.

The commission will not discuss or respond to any comments made during this time.

Please be concise and mindful of your time during your remarks so that everyone wishing to speak has the opportunity to do so.

With that said, will the first speaker please step forward?

Clearly state your name into the microphone, and you will have four minutes to the uh nice reward.

It's nice to award people who and it's nice for people to know that other people care uh about them being involved in the effort.

And heritage preservation to me is a worthwhile endeavor, and I'm hoping people get rewarded for it.

And I don't mean monetary, I mean just uh just a reward, and sometimes even knowing bad as a um now when it comes to the inventory, I really believe, and I've said this many times before.

I mean, some of those buildings have been there like 10 years, and they when initially they made all the potential landmarks now for the inventory.

They are the intent was to do it in a couple of years.

It was never meant that would be a lifelong thing.

So I'm hoping you come up with a specific detailed plan and working with Molly, it's not pressuring Molly either.

It's working with Molly, so to know exactly when things are coming approximately when things are coming up.

So that there's a so there's some progress, the timetable.

So even we know like are we on schedule or not?

Just to leave it up in the air continually for year after year.

I don't think constantly because even the property owners, they deserve to know where they are on the landmark list.

And so I think it's really bad that it just year after year after year.

And hopefully, again, stretch it out or whatever, when at least call up with some kind of proposal.

There are a number of buildings like IBM Computer Site, they're already landmark bed, C C High Schale, Hotel, Chicago Bridge, Great West Po, the Darry Queen, First Presbyterian Church here, one of the older churches.

These really deserve just to be landmarked because every, I mean, everyone knows it's been a goal.

It's kind of so try to do it as concisely as you can we can get away with.

Try to just do it and just be done with it.

If some of them don't deserve it, then they deserve to not be on the list.

And we should just get to it.

Anyway, that's my opinion.

Good luck to you in doing that.

All right, thank you all.

Thank you, Ben, for everything and everybody else.

Thank you, Mr.

Skullnik.

Uh will the next speaker please step forward and clearly state your name into the microphone and you'll have four minutes.

I'm I'm not seeing the green light actually.

Can you push?

There you go.

Now it's on okay.

My name is Barb Hudson.

Um, a couple of things.

I want to uh applaud the efforts to uh do the awards for the community um with regards to uh heritage preservation.

I think it goes a long way for education, public education, which is part of your purview.

Um, when people see that people are being recognized for this, they want to know more about heritage preservation.

So uh I again applaud those efforts.

The second thing is again um Indian Heights.

I see it is on the agenda for tonight.

I hope that it we have uh direction to go forward with that.

I was speaking with the um the uh city council folks this week, and um it was made clear to me that we are dragging our feet with that and why is it taking so long?

And I told them that I would get back to them and let them know what the plans are to go forward.

Um this has been years in the making, and so I'd like to give them some concrete direction as far as dates and times.

Thank you.

I was speaking with the um the uh city council folks this week and um it was made clear to me that we are dragging our feet with that and why is it taking so long and i told them that i would get back to them and let them know what the plans are to go forward um this has been years in the making and so i'd like to give them some concrete direction as far as dates and times thank you thank you miss howson will the next speaker please step forward state your name and you have four minutes john creasel mr president members of the commission i compliment you that you are on this commission um relative to that uh i compliment you also that you're gonna be paying attention to um reinstating awards this might be premature but barb hudson deserves one and probably Barry Skullnik I mean they're here all the time and time is the most important element that we have and they're here all the time and I hope that you will give consideration to uh giving them awards um certainly not solid gold but uh something appropriate uh that said something very exciting um it relates to not assuming anything uh uh what I'm going to be making reference to uh and this is a discovery by one of our restorians bunny kettle camp um rochester had a bell it's absolutely incredible that she discovered this oh you're gonna I didn't see you here are you gonna speak well oh okay well let's keep keep it to the commission please thank you oh okay well I'll ignore that she's here but that said she no I can't not like you I just so I'd wish that she had come before so that I could say I totally resport support her uh would now that she's here it could say she deserves an award or as well as an historian but she's going to be revealing some very exciting information to you that nobody has been aware of for uh I don't know um certainly um a bit after 1954 so with that I uh thank you for your time and Bunny you didn't have your name up here oh okay okay I'll write it in for you all right thank you Mr.

Krizel and and it looks like then the next speaker uh please step up and state your name you have four minutes hi I'm Bunny Cattlecamp and I'm going to hand well can I have you actually hand that to coordinator Patterson Lundgren to the staff and she can pass it out and she can yes thank you.

Beautiful thank you I'm Bunny Kettlecamp I live at 232 7th Avenue Southeast in Rochester Minnesota.

Okay sounds good we'll we'll give her about 30 seconds here to pass that out and then go ahead.

Sorry we're just trying to follow procedure I just yes I'm sorry with it I suppose okay yeah let me get down okay your four minutes will start now thank you right everybody ready how do you do I'm Bunny Kettlecamp and I was doing I'm the researcher at the History Center of Almstead County and I was doing um working on my male family pictures and it came about that Miss America came to Rochester and uh that's what this article is ultimately about but on page three I tried to highlight it um where it talks about because we're all familiar with the uh the restoration of the clock and the bell that used to be on top of the fire hall in the center of Broadway at Four Street right and uh in any event this gives a some real different information about that bell and uh I presuppose that the bell came with the clock

Um where it talks about because we're all familiar with the uh the restoration of the clock and the bell that used to be on top of the fire hall in the center of Broadway at 4th Street.

Right.

And uh in any event, this gives a some real different information about that bell.

And uh I presupposed that that bell came with the clock and the fire hall when they built it in 1899.

And here it comes according to this article that the bell was cast in 1887 and used here for nearly 50 years.

And uh they called it the old town clock, uh the old town bell, and uh um they actually took it um and it tells in the article where it was, and I've included a picture of the buildings because it says that it was um at one point in the uh in the um electric light plant, and then it was in the fire hall that was next door to it, and it would be wrong sort of as an alarm, but uh I've included the picture of those buildings, and they are across the street, approximately straight across the street from John Krisel's shop on third street, and uh you can see the pictures there, but uh I think and I don't know how this would happen, but that somebody from the HPC could ask maybe to see the clock or the the bell and see if it has any markings on it that say that it was from 1887, because um it seems as though it had a long history in Rochester before the fire hall was built, and uh I think it would be rather exciting to know that.

But um do you all have any questions at all about uh I I appreciate the information.

Unfortunately, during the public comment, we don't we can't have questions and answers, but thank you.

So that's um that is uh the great discovery of the week.

Thank you.

If if you'll be around after and you wish to connect um independently and maybe give contact information, or you can reach out to us on the city website.

That would be another way to sure continue the conversation.

Sure.

All right, thank you so much.

Is there anyone else wishing to speak for the open comment period?

Um commissioners, we would need a motion to suspend the rules.

Okay, do we have a second?

I'll second.

Okay, we have a motion to suspend the rules to allow John Creasel to have another can we specify the rules to allow John Creasel to have another 30 seconds, another 30 seconds.

Does your second still stand?

Okay, all in favor say aye.

Aye, 30 seconds.

Thank you.

Any remote say nay?

Okay, thank you very much.

You have 30 seconds.

I passed this information on to Eric, our past fire chief, and he's so excited about it.

He, by the way, is uh uh leaving Rochester, but in any case, uh something in the future uh additionally in the as exciting might be revealed to the commission.

But that said, uh he said, John, go up to the fire station.

The bell is there, so that's something I can do.

But the exciting thing about this is that there's now two landmark possibilities.

This bell that was rung at the fire station to alert people.

That's a landmark bell, and that now that we know that this bell then joined the fire hall bell and hung from the Lgin clock.

So we've got two landmark items here.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr.

Creasel.

Okay.

Uh with that, we will close the open public comment uh period.

And the meeting of the Rochester Heritage Preservation is called to order on March 24th, 2026 at 515 p.m.

I will now call the rule.

Uh Commissioner Bodeker, present.

Commissioner Connell, present.

Commissioner Gandhi is absent with notice.

Uh Commissioner Kessler.

Present.

Commissioner Mutchler.

Present.

Commissioner Poyer.

Here.

Commissioner Schable.

Here.

Commissioner Tater.

Present.

Commissioner Wasmer?

Present.

And Chair's Astro is present.

The order of the agenda is on your packet uh and in this on the screen.

Are there any objections to the order of the agenda as presented in your packets?

Are there any objections to the order of the agenda as presented in your packets?

Hearing none, the order of the agenda is approved by unanimous consent.

Moving on to agenda item 4A, the consent agenda, including the minutes from the February 24th meeting.

These were included in our packets.

Are there any corrections or objections to the minutes as included in the agenda packet?

Are there any corrections or objections to the minutes as included in the agenda packet?

Hearing none, the minutes are approved by unanimous consent.

Moving on to agenda item five reports and recommendations.

And with that, I will turn it over to you, coordinator Patterson Lundgren.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Good evening, members of the commission.

Tonight we have uh requested certificate of appropriateness to replace um the windows on the property at 433 9th Avenue Southwest.

This property is contributing to the Pill Hill Historic District, and as such is um part of that that landmark property, um, which was designated um about a year ago.

So um two things that you want to be thinking about in terms of the property are the architectural style and um the architect Harold Crawford, those are um two aspects of the property which really make it contributing to the historic district.

Real briefly, I want to just go over again sort of where um the requirements are in terms of a certificate of appropriateness and your review of those.

Uh the um section 620040 C8 um talks about uh the standards that we use when we look at alterations of a property, a landmark property or contributing property to a landmark district.

Um and it specifically references the Secretary of Interior standards and also the locally adopted design guidelines.

Um and this is um to be held at a public meeting, but not a public hearing.

Um the section on the right-hand side of your screen, you'll notice is from the design guidelines, and it talks about how to apply um how to apply the guidelines, how to understand the Secretary of Interior standards, and really getting a sense of you know what makes this property contributing and what features are significant in contributing to the historic district.

So the proposal is to replace 40 of the window inserts.

Um we'll get in a little further and talk about what that is in terms of the insert of the window.

Uh much of the trim, all of the trim on the exterior will remain in place.

Um it's really only the window units themselves, the sashes, and we'll talk a little bit about what that means that will be replaced.

Uh so in your packet, um, it was some smaller images, uh, but all of the images that have um all of the windows that have the little tag with a number and a green check are proposed to be replaced.

Some of the windows um have been replaced or um are newer, uh, and those are not proposed to be replaced.

There were some changes that were made to the back of the house.

Um those are proposed to remain in place.

So talk a little bit about um talk a little bit about uh a window and kind of the part that's going to be replaced, and um the particular windows here um that are going to be um installed.

Um the windows here are an Anderson product, and there's a lot of different options.

So I'm showing you.

Oh did somebody press up?

There's a button up.

Sorry, did that get pressed by any chance?

Okay, oh, okay.

That probably thank you.

Yeah, thank you.

That has happened before where somebody pressed it by accident.

So yeah.

Okay, so I'll get back to this.

So um, the windows uh that are being proposed for replacement, um, the replacement window inserts.

Um, there's a lot of different options.

So I'm showing you some of the bits and pieces of this to really understand um, you know, what this new window would be.

Um, on the left hand side, you'll see just a diagram of a window.

The existing windows are are sash windows, primarily they're they're double-hung sash.

Um, I was able to look at um the original architectural plans.

This is a Crawford house.

So the blueprints are in the archives, and the plans show you know this double hung window with some variations to what actually was built, it appears.

So that's something to note.

So the the sashes themselves would be removed, and then the insert would be a casement style window, which is the um the red window that you see kind of on the first sort sort to the left of the um the other images.

So those pop open instead of sliding up and down.

Um full divided light grill.

So these would have the grills applied to uh simulate previous the historic window pattern.

Um historically, windows were made with individual uh panes of glass called lights and held in place with these wood pieces called muntains and mullions.

And um the grill pattern simulates that look.

Uh the full divided light actually is sort of the most um uh kind of complete um uh grill that you can use to simulate this.

It really helps to replicate that look um when you're looking at the house from the outside.

Sometimes if you only have the grill applied to one side, um, you just don't get the same kind of shadowing.

Um then I've also shown you um on the black and white, the farmhouse and fractional, so you can choose different styles and you can actually customize that, which is what they're proposing to do.

Um, some of the windows have uh above this on the second sash on the upper sash have fewer lights and more on the lower part, so that uh the photo, if you look towards um the right hand side of the house, the dining room, and this image couldn't quite get that, couldn't quite get that accurate, but they are proposing to actually simulate what's called a cottage style window.

So they would be look very similar to what's to what's there.

Are there any questions about what's being proposed?

Commissioners, any questions?

Um very quickly before we proceed.

Uh I noticed uh the slide you had up before, maybe a couple slides ago, uh, was showing the authority of the HPC for minor uh minor or major alterations.

Um can you clarify which one this is that you've brought before us?

Yeah, so um, so actually it's major alterations that come before you minor alterations are done um at a staff level, and we review it, and um, if we're not able to approve it, basically the the applicant would come here um kind of as an appeal to you, but this is the major alteration.

Okay, thank you.

Yep.

And I'll talk a little bit more about why I'm bringing it to you as a major alteration.

So um the Secretary of Interior Standards, um, typically we use this standards for the rehabilitation of historic buildings.

There's 10 different standards.

Um, this set of standards really allows for the most leeway in terms of changing a historic property.

Um, it allows for alterations that um do some updating, um, allow it to be used for different types of uses, adaptive reuse, and um as opposed to something like uh a reconstruction where you're actually trying to depict something of a particular era.

So uh Secretary of Interior Standards for Rehabilitation, which um I think you should all be familiar with.

We've we've applied these in the past.

In addition to the standards, the design guidelines talk about Rochester foundational principles, um, which are adopted actually in the standards in our, I'm sorry, in our guidelines.

And those are environmental stewardship, fiscal responsibility and sustainability, public safety, social equity, and compassion.

So we use these as well when we look through the standards to determine if a project um meets our adopted requirements.

Um also in the design guidelines, as I mentioned previously, um, you really look at you know, what about this property is contributing to the historic district, and then what are the features of the property that um that contribute to the individual property.

So I've given you some information about tutor revival homes.

Um, and I've also given you uh um a screenshot of uh the designation study that was adopted for the Pill Hill district, and it talks about um it calls out tutor revival homes and the properties designed by Harold Crawford.

So this really is kind of one of those properties that help define the Pill Hill Historic District.

Now, when you look at the tutor revival style of architecture, it does mention windows.

Um, and it really talks about how two to revival, you've got kind of a lot of different types of windows.

One of the things about this style of architecture is that you have a lot of variation and patterns that you can see in the in the images here on the screen.

Um and so different types of windows would have been appropriate um for this style of home.

So in terms of the evaluation, um, I'm providing you with some findings of fact.

And what I really want to kind of um focused on, well, I want to again mention the design uh the foundational principles.

Um I think that the material that's been submitted does talk about um environmental concerns in terms of energy efficiency of the home and the safety of the residents there, being able to um use the windows for egress in an emergency type of situation.

Um I think you'll probably notice that I held back on actually making a recommendation in your packet.

And I really wanted to um kind of ask you and have you think about this point number two, bullet point number two.

If you think that what's being proposed is a minimal change.

So um Secretary of Interior standard number one requires that minimal changes to materials features, spaces, spaces, and spatial relationships are maintained.

And I think that's kind of the critical question in my mind is this a minimal um change to the historic property, the house, but also um also remembering that this is about a historic district in terms of you know, changing the windows on one property and how that impacts the historic district.

So bullet point number three, um, existing historic window openings will remain.

Um so it really again is just that window insert that's going to change.

Um new windows are compatible in terms of material uh size, scale proportion.

Um, it's really that just that material of the sashes themselves that are leaving the property.

Um and again, if these new window inserts were removed in the future, the essential integrity of the property.

So if you are inclined to approve this, I would say that these are your findings of fact.

Um, and then I've given you a motion to approve that.

If your sense is that um this is too much of a change, too much of the original material of the building is being removed to have an impact on um the house and in on the district, which is the landmark, um, then I would recommend that you consider uh denial and basically cite that it doesn't meet the um the Secretary of Interior Standards, if that's your finding.

So with that, I will stop and see if you have any questions for me.

Okay, commission, we'll open it up for questions from staff.

Commissioner Poyer, you have the floor.

So um, coordinator Patterson Lundgren, um, do you feel that this project preserves the historical integrity of the property?

Um, you know, I think that I I have some concerns about the amount of material that's being removed from the house.

Um, and I think I would be extremely concerned about that if this was individually listed.

But I think when you pull back and say, okay, this is one property within a historic district, um, that makes me a little more comfortable with that.

So we went through a pretty long process of back and forth um with the neighborhood.

Um, did this come up about projects like window replacement during those discussions?

Um, you know, in some discussion, um, you know, I know there's a property owner who has um had custom made storm windows, right, for their property, and they're quite proud of that.

That came up.

Um, and those are alternative options for some of what this property owner is looking for in terms of weatherization.

Um, but that solution wouldn't address the concern about egress.

Sure.

Okay.

Uh, can I address the applicant with some questions?

Because the applicant is in attendance.

I thought we so um this isn't a public hearing, so it normally the rules would be no.

Uh, we would have to suspend the rules to allow that, but I would like to offer um time for all the commissioners to ask questions of staff before, and then at that point I would invite a point point of clarification.

Attorney Carlson, is that true that the applicant is not allowed to answer questions at a certificate of appropriateness review?

That is true.

That you need to address the commission during open comment period at the beginning.

Okay.

All right, and then we would need to suspend the rules in order to give them an opportunity for the commission to ask questions.

And if the commission, I would just say why at the floor, if the commission is inclined to do that, I would suggest that we limit that in some way, whether it's two minutes of question and answer, or it's we get to ask five questions and just something to think about.

Thank you.

Okay.

I I would like to make that motion, but I'll defer until you think it's appropriate.

Okay.

Um it would be my preference to allow commissioners to ask questions of staff, and then I'll look back to you for that motion.

Commissioner Kessler.

Yeah.

So when we're talking about the difference between major and minor, is there a percentage of material that we're looking at, or is that pretty subjective?

No.

Um, no, what it is is if it's um if it impacts a character defining feature of the property, right?

So windows are character-defining feature of a tutor revival house.

And that's why I wanted to bring this to you, because I think it could be considered, you know, an impact to that.

Okay.

Are there any other questions from the commission for coordinator Patterson Grid?

Okay, Commissioner Poyer, I would uh entertain your motion.

I'd like to make make a motion to suspend the rules to be able to ask the applicant questions.

And I would limit that to 10 minutes of time.

A second.

Okay, we have a motion to allow the applicant to answer questions and have 10 minutes of time to um speak to the commission made by Commissioner Poyer, seconded by Commissioner Kessler.

Any other discussion?

Okay.

All in favor say aye.

Aye.

Okay.

Any opposed?

Any abstentions?

Passes unanimous.

Okay.

With that, um, please feel free to approach uh Mr.

Austin Ryan.

Please state your name into the microphone and you'll have 10 minutes.

Austin Ryan.

Okay.

Commissioner Poyer, feel free to ask your questions up there.

Thank you very much.

Um, Mr.

Ryan, is there another window in the market that would more closely match the original than what was chosen?

No.

Okay.

Um the windows chosen would be um considered they're they're custom windows, right?

We're not just yes, everything is custom.

So it will match the size exactly.

This the sash ratios uh will match, the panes will match.

Everything is going to be uh as it currently is as far as aesthetic is concerned.

Okay.

These these windows that have been chosen would be considered pretty high end, correct?

Yes, they're a premium late positioned product in the market.

Okay.

Excellent.

Um the energy gains for this project seem very large.

Um a 2.4 ton saving was noted.

Can you explain what that means?

That is uh calculated using the Department of Labor and Industry's conductive heat loss.

Uh it's the heat load calculations that are used by general contractors and HVAC companies.

Uh we contacted this homeowner or they contacted us uh specifically for the purpose of making this house more energy efficient, more livable.

Um as a whole, during the cold periods of the winter, this house is not able to maintain the uh 68 degree um three feet up off of the floor and three feet away from the exterior wall comfort standards that are in place in many municipalities in Minnesota.

Uh additionally, their um uh energy bills are uh exorbitant.

So those are the main uh reasons they also have a priority of of ease of maintenance for this house too.

They want to preserve it.

Um so those are those are the key priorities.

But yeah, as you can see, there's roughly a 28,000 BTU an hour uh heat load that would no longer be on that heating system during the winter months.

I didn't calculate for uh for summer months that that's far more difficult because of environmental factors like trees and shading and things like that.

We don't have a specific um delta T number is what it's called to work off of for the summer months, but for the winter we do.

So that's why I used uh a standardized method like that.

So um in your experience, could you give us some context of like how big that like is it is this like one of the highest end high highest gains you've ever seen from a project?

Yeah, it's definitely it's definitely right up there, absolutely.

Okay.

Is it fair to say that uh replacing any original window in the Pill Hill district with a modern window will result in large energy savings?

Very much so.

Yes.

Okay, thank you.

Yep.

So the bedroom windows do not meet the current code for egress windows, correct?

They do not, no, and I would I would argue that they're unsafe, especially the the windows in the um bedroom on the front gable on the very top peak windows are the smallest windows in the house, uh, and those are in a bedroom.

Okay.

Um, was it clear to you the information the city was asking for?

No.

For approval?

No.

Okay.

No.

So you were just said I was addressed with with comments uh such as I need to make my case as to why we should be able to do this project.

Okay.

Thank you.

Rather than a and I don't mean to throw any shade at Molly, but um it would be nice.

I I know the adoption of the UDC, I was very involved in that process.

Uh, and the intent of it was to allow a collaborative environment between industry and uh regulation.

And that was not really the experience that I had from this.

Um, it wasn't a collaborative interactive conversation back and forth saying can we we'll we'll try and stay on track with questions specifically about the windows themselves.

Okay.

So how much um has seeking this approval delayed the time for the project?

Uh I believe we had a sign contract and deposit money from this customer in January.

Uh typical typically our cycle time from start to finish uh from signed contract to installed product is 104 days.

Um probably I don't know where we're at right now, 60 plus days.

Okay.

So that's been the delay so far.

Yep.

So that 104 really hasn't even started yet since it's approved.

Okay.

Thank you.

Um perhaps you're not aware of the Commissioner Poyer.

How many questions do you have?

It's the last one.

Okay, go ahead.

Perhaps you're not aware of uh other houses in the neighborhood.

Would you expect there are many houses in the Pill Hill Historic District in a similar situation in regards to the windows?

Yep, absolutely.

Okay.

Thank you.

I'm done.

Any other commissioners?

Commissioner Kessler.

Yeah.

In reviewing, uh I see that you're moving to casement for all of the windows.

Yep.

Is that necessary for egress for all of the rooms or just a few rooms in the house?

Uh it's not necessary for egress in all of the rooms.

However, I would recommend keeping things cohesive and consistent.

Uh, I also did have an architect review it, and she did agree with me on that sentiment.

Uh, she also did uh note that moving to casements moves the drainage plane out further on that wall surface, now wetting the masonry of the structure less and preserving one of the more major key historical elements of the structure, which is the masonry uh makeup of the exterior of that building.

Great.

Thank you.

Commissioners, any other questions for the applicant?

Uh Commissioner Schable.

One comment, one question.

Question is as part of that uh energy audit, is it standard to use the negative nine degrees in winter?

Uh or is that a value that's yeah?

So that value is is set forth by county, I believe, in the state of Minnesota.

So that would be pertinent to Omstead County, but if you used that calculation in St.

Louis County and Duluth, that would not be relevant.

So just context for that.

I appreciate that.

Uh and then my comment was uh, well, the information that you submitted, uh, I thought uh it was it was apparent to me that there was a lot of effort made to try to recognize the historic value of the home and keep those design characteristics in place.

So I appreciate your you and your team and the clients' interest in trying to meet those guidelines and preserve the historic nature of the property.

Absolutely.

Well, I I I wholeheartedly uh agree that preserving the the historical integrity and and aesthetics of these structures uh is is paramount.

Uh I do believe there should be some guardrails in place.

So leave it at that.

Commissioners, any other questions for the applicant?

Okay, I have just one.

Um so in uh it was included in our packets and email to coordinator Patterson Lungren from yourself.

You say, please note my correspondence um below that in the rendering I wasn't able to match the exact grill patterns that we'll be using, nor was I able to replicate the unequal sash ratios that a couple of the openings have.

Uh the windows we will order for this project will match all grill patterns and sash ratios identically.

Can you just verify that that is still active is still the case?

Okay, so sit simply the uh renderings we have in our our packet are your best attempt at representing that's exactly it.

I was kind of confined to an equal sash ratio um for the double hung style where that but that light gets placed.

I was confined to an equal light uh on that, and then I was kind of confined to number of widths and heights on the actual um sashes, but no, they will match the what's currently in there.

And can you clarify that's in your software?

It is in the software.

Okay, correct.

And I know.

And in that rend in that rendering too, one other one other thing that's noteworthy.

Okay.

What you don't see, and this is this is uh of historical significance in my opinion, and this may be good information for you guys in the future if you are uh up against this again.

Uh in replacing historic windows, especially in balloon framed houses like this one with weight pocket style double hungs, it is very important not to do a full frame style of replacement because you will uh the big thing for me as a licensed contractor is you will compromise the structural integrity of the house.

Uh, but in doing so, removing that existing window frame uh is definitely going to uh compromise the historical integrity of the house too.

Um so the Mollyans that are on the uh rendering that I did aren't technically historically accurate either.

So just noteworthy, but they will be historically accurate during the course of the project.

Thank you.

I I was specifically asked by a member of the public who had looked through the agenda and had wondered why the renderings weren't matching.

And I noticed that email.

So thank you for clarifying absolutely.

Um Commission, are there any other questions for the applicant?

We have one minute remaining.

Okay.

Hearing none, uh, you could you can go ahead and take your seat again.

Thank you very much.

Um we'll move back uh after that.

If anyone has any new questions for staff, now would be an appropriate time to ask.

I I have one um coordinator Patterson Lunger, and you may or may not know this, but can you verify?

Um, is this a primary homesteaded property or is this an investment property?

Are you aware?

I am not, I don't know for sure.

I believe it's homesteaded.

Okay.

Are there gonna any are there any other questions for staff?

Um at this point, I would invite a motion.

Uh I would like this motion um to please include.

Let me see here.

Uh so the motion to approve or deny the certificate of appropriateness should be made.

And please cite um what guidelines or standards that it does or does not meet.

Uh and on slide number 11, there was some wording.

We are back at slide 11.

So at this point, I would invite a motion.

Please be very precise in what you are proposing.

Uh Commissioner Poyer, go ahead.

Thank you.

I'd like to make a two-part motion.

Uh, I make a motion to approve a certificate of appropriateness for 433 Ninth Avenue Southwest for window insertment replacement as it meets adoptive design guidelines and the Secretary of Interior standards for rebel uh rehabilitation.

And the um guidelines would be um minimal changes to materials feature spaces, spaces and spatial relationships, and existing historic window openings will remain.

And then, furthermore, the HPC should suggest to city staff that window replacement projects should be treated as a minor alteration, provided the applicant makes a reasonable effort to preserve historical integrity.

We have a motion.

Do we have a second?

A second.

Okay.

Motion made by Commissioner Poyer, seconded by Commissioner Kessler.

Commissioner Poyer, one more time before we open for discussion.

Will you please repeat everything?

Because there's a lot there and we want to be precise about what we're just uh deliberating here.

Okay, I make a motion to approve a certificate of appropriateness for 433 Ninth Avenue Southwest for window insert replacement as it meets adoptive design guidelines and the sp Secretary of Interior standards for rehabilit rehabilitation, specifically the minimal minimal changes to materials, features, spaces, and spatial relationships and existing slash historic window opening will remain.

Furthermore, the HPC suggests to cities to city staff that window replacement projects should be treated as a minor alteration, provided the applicant makes a reasonable effort to preserve historical integrity.

Okay, um, Commissioner Poyer, the floor is yours.

Is there anything you would like to discuss?

Yeah.

A core value of the city of Rochester is responsible environmental stewardship.

The energy savings of this project are very much in line with that value.

It's not explicitly listed, but I'd hope we'd also consider safety a core value, another feature of this project.

I'm also satisfied that the window replacements will not result in a loss of historical integrity for the house.

I wouldn't have supported the Pill Hill Historic District if I believed homeowners would not be able to replace windows.

It's not a good use of anyone's time for window projects to be subject to this level of review in front of the HPC to delay projects and also to spend our time when you know we would rather be landmarking properties.

So I I support this project.

I think it does a good job of keeping the windows to look as close to what they did historically as possible while providing major benefits to the homeowner.

And I would hope that uh the moving forward on this level of project could be approved at the staff level.

Okay.

Thank you, Commissioner Poyer.

Commissioner Kessler, would you like to speak to the motion?

I'm in agreement.

I think that when we're looking at energy efficiency as well as maintaining the core features, like making sure we are keeping the framing, making sure that we are keeping the sashing and the lights um historically accurate.

I I don't see a reason for us to necessarily come here and nitpick little details.

So that is my thoughts on this.

Any other commissioners we can wishing to speak to the motion?

Commissioner Schable.

I'll speak to the first part of the motion first.

I I am really impressed with the applicant's materials and the homeowners' goals.

I think that even though there are a lot of historic materials being removed, you know, 40 windows being replaced, that the distinctive features will be preserved.

Uh historic character will be preserved, you know.

Including its two revival architectural style.

Uh it appears that great length has been taken to keep the same aesthetic.

Now these are custom windows, these are not whatever you can get off the rack.

Um I forget the phrase, but they're they're on framed on both sides at double gilded uh feature.

Uh and this is all to improve the energy efficiency of the home, to provide egress, which meets some of our chesters foundation uh principles.

So for all those reasons, I support the certificate, uh support approving the certificate of appropriateness.

Uh however, because this applicant has done a really good job, does not mean that future applicants will do uh a very good job.

And you know, we're bound by what the UDC states is a minor alteration or a major alteration.

I would uh I don't want to potentially violate the law without having done a full analysis of it.

And I don't want to approve a statement saying all window replacements will be a minor alteration.

Uh and when we're thinking about whether this is a minimal change or not, right?

40 windows are a lot.

If you look at this uh building or this home, you know, this is not your standard residential.

There's where the living room is, there's where the bathroom is, that's a bedroom over there.

There's windows everywhere.

Uh and so it is it's a significant feature of the house.

If the owner had chosen not to use all of those same distinctive features.

Well, it's a window replacement.

And now it's not coming to us.

We don't know who will be in the city uh reviewing this project in the future.

You know, we're here as an in-between with the public and staff to review these projects, make sure that they meet standards.

Uh, and so I don't think we should automatically delegate that duty.

Thank you, Commissioner Shable.

Are there any other commissioners wishing to speak to the issue?

Commissioner Poyer.

Yeah, I'd just like to clarify um from Commissioner Schabel's comments.

You said that any window project would be approved.

And that's not what the motion says.

It at the end it says provided that the applicant makes a reasonable effort to preserve historical integrity.

So that is the guardrail that I put into staff's hands is to know when to treat it as a minor alteration or when to bring that before the HPC.

Thank you.

Okay, Commissioners, is anyone else wishing to speak to the issue?

Um, I I will go ahead and speak to the motion.

I uh agree with Commissioner Schable.

Uh, furthermore, I think with Robert's rules, we're getting into the weeds here that I think the second half of the motion is not germane to the project at hand, to the application at hand.

Um, and and that may be um kind of forbidden if if you will.

I would have I would have to pull out Robert's rules and read, but I think that's a separate order of business uh to be undertaken at a separate time.

Um and I don't think it's appropriate to tie that to this uh request that's before us.

Um so I am in favor of the first portion of the motion and I I couldn't vote for the motion as it stands now.

Um, however, I would very much be open to amending the motion before us.

Um does anybody else have any other thoughts on the motion before us?

Okay, if not, um we will proceed to a vote.

Um and I will call the roll for this.

Um so again, because of the complexity, and I just was not able to write that fast.

Commissioner Poyer, before we vote, will you please one more time read uh the fullness of the motion, including uh your supporting facts?

I make a motion to approve the certificate of appropriateness for 433 Ninth Avenue Southwest for window insert replacement as it meets adoptive design guidelines and the Secretary of the Interior standards for rehabilitation, specifically with for minimal changes to materials, features, spaces, and spatial relationships and existing historic window opening will remain.

Furthermore, the HBC suggests to city staff city staff that window replacement projects should be treated as a minor alteration, provided the applicant makes a reasonable effort to preserve historical integrity.

Okay, with that motion before us, um please vote either Commissioner's Astro too late.

I'm sorry.

Yes, Commissioner.

Can I make a motion to drop the second part so that we can get the first part accomplished so that they can move forward on this and maybe push the second part, although I don't necessarily disagree to a different motion as per your conversation about are we taking too many liberties on our process?

Point of order.

Hang on, thank you.

I I would welcome that, but I'm gonna quick confer with attorney Carlson as a non-voting member.

Um, is Commissioner Wasmer um able to amend a motion before us?

Not able to amend a motion, but I think um her input to the commission if the commission is thinking they want the motion to change in some way, I think it would be way cleaner to offer an amendment versus voting, presumably you know, voting on the motion as is.

So that would be my advice.

Thank you.

And I will clarify because that would mean if if this fails due to the second portion, the the entire motion would fail.

Correct.

Okay.

And and yes, Commissioner Kessler.

I would like to make an amendment to have the second portion be a separate motion for us to vote on.

Um so just to clarify per procedure, uh, to a motion to amend, you can strike language, but we can't propose new business as a part of that motion.

So if you would like to strike that, you can.

Okay.

Um and that would be what we would vote on before us today.

That would be my proposed amendment.

Okay.

So again, I apologize.

I know it's very wordy, and um I wish we had it all in front of us.

But if you could one more time, Commissioner Poyer, um, she is motioning to amend but to strike the second portion, and it was quite lengthy.

Can you please read the paragraph that um furthermore?

The the HPC suggests to city staff that window replacement projects should be treated as a minor alteration, provided the applicant makes a reasonable effort to preserve historical integrity.

Okay, so that language will be struck.

Do we have a second?

I second.

Okay, motion to strike uh by Commissioner Kessler, seconded by Commissioner Bodaker.

Is there any further discussion on the motion before us that now has the second portion removed?

Okay, at this point, I will vote or move to a voice vote.

When I call your name, please say uh aye or nay.

Commissioner Bodeker.

And Mr.

Chair.

Yes.

Sorry, just if I may just remember for the HPC.

This is you're just voting on the motion to amend at this point.

There will be another vote to actually approve or deny the certificate of appropriateness.

So this is just on the motion to amend to remove everything from furthermore on.

Thank you.

Thank you for your clarification, Attorney Carlson.

So with that, Commissioner Bodaker.

Yay.

Commissioner Connell.

Aye.

Commissioner Kessler.

Aye.

Commissioner Muchler.

Aye.

Commissioner Poyer.

Nay.

Commissioner Schable.

Aye.

Commissioner Tater.

Nay.

Commissioner or Chair's Astro votes aye.

Uh we have two nays, Commissioner Tater and Commissioner Poyer.

All others were in favor.

The motion to amend passes now.

We are at that motion to approve the certificate of appropriateness with the findings of fact as stated by Commissioner Poyer.

Um, is there any further discussion on approval of the certificate of appropriateness?

Okay.

Uh we'll do a voice vote again.

Commissioner Bodaker.

Aye.

Commissioner Connell.

Aye.

Commissioner Kessler.

Aye.

Commissioner Mutchler.

Aye.

Commissioner Poyer?

Aye.

Commissioner Schable.

Aye.

Commissioner Tater.

Aye.

And Chair's Astro votes aye.

Passes unanimous.

Okay, thank you.

Would the chair consider the a new motion?

Um to re bring up the stricken portion of the previous motion.

At this point, I would not.

I believe that would be proposing new business.

And I think this would require a report and recommendation from staff as well as input and an advanced notice, probably for our city attorney office to make sure that we are on solid ground on that.

Okay.

Thank you.

So with that, uh there are no public hearings.

We are moving on to other business item seven uh project updates.

Coordinator Patterson Lundgren, you have the floor.

Yes.

Okay.

So for um the second item on reports and recommendations, the award committee.

Um at last month's meeting, um, you did pass a motion um indicating that you were establishing uh a committee to um recreate the uh the awards program, either recreate or reinstall the awards program um with the caveat that um that would only be done if you could find two volunteers.

Um the chair has indicated that two volunteers have um have indicated they would like to uh to serve on this committee.

Um and so I do have the chair's nomination on your screen.

Um we don't have anything established in either the UDC or any of our adopted uh procedures to um identify your process for establishing a committee.

So the chair has indicated that Robert's rules does have a process, and I'm giving that to you on the screen.

Um Mr.

Chair, I would give it back to you.

Thank you, coordinator Patterson Lundgren.

Um so yes, with this uh I'm I'm using what's laid out in Robert's rules.

And so with that, um the chair nominates Commissioner Bodeker and Commissioner Wasmer to the ad hoc awards establishment committee with Bodeker as committee chair.

The question before us is shall these person constitute the committee.

And at this point, um any commissioner wishing to strike names may uh or the chair may amend uh the nominations before us.

Does anyone wish to strike any of the names before us?

And with that, I'll also ask Commissioner Bodaker and Wasmer Um, do you wish to strike your own names?

No, just corrected to two D's and one K.

Oh, okay, thank you.

Um and that may be my fault.

I apologize.

Okay.

Okay, so therefore, the chair nominates Commissioner Bodeker and Wasmer to the ad hoc awards establishment committee with Bodaker as committee chair.

The question before us is shall these persons constitute the committee?

Uh and we move directly to a vote.

This does not need a second per Roberts rules.

So all those in favor say aye.

Aye.

All those opposed say nay.

Any abstentions?

Congratulations.

You are the awards committee.

Um, with that, I will add there has been an outline provided that roughly could be what you work on and propose.

You're welcome to, as a committee, expand on that, reduce that, or have other ideas.

Um, and then Commissioner Bodeker as chair, you would be the one uh keeping coordinator Patterson Lundgren and myself in the loop when you're ready to bring that back to us with a proposal.

The hope was that we'd be ready by heritage preservation month.

I know that will be quite the squeeze, so that may not be possible, but we look forward to uh whatever you bring back to us.

Thank you.

Okay, Coordinator Patterson Lundgren.

Um, are there any other updates under agenda item seven?

Yeah, so other business.

Um, I've got a couple of project updates specifically that I wanted to mention tonight.

Um, Indian Heights, which comes up at quite a few of the meetings.

Um, I've actually started a grant application today.

Um the grant application is to the Minnesota Historical Society, and um I'd be seeking funds to hire somebody, a consultant to do a national register eligibility.

Now, the reason reason we would do a national register eligibility is because local red local designation is not funded by the grant, by this particular grant.

So what we've done in the past is we've used this grant money to do the national registry eligibility, and then I'm able to take that information and apply it to um to our local criteria and determine whether or not um I'd recommend a landmark.

One of the reasons that we want to do this study is that um there's some good historic documentation on the history of Indian Heights, um, but it's primarily from uh an Anglo American viewpoint.

Um, and it doesn't include kind of a um a more current um viewpoint from an indigenous standpoint of kind of the uh the significance of Indian Heights as a property.

Um something called a um traditional cultural place um is one of the measures that the national register now uh now includes within their criteria.

Um, and so this grant in particular would find a consultant who would help us um hopefully uh collect some of the more recent oral history about the property to determine if it would cat uh if it would qualify as a traditional cultural place.

And it may not qualify as that, but it may qualify then as still under other criteria.

Um so it's a little bit more of an updated um kind of uh viewpoint on the property.

Um, and again, include probably a stronger, hopefully a stronger indigenous voice in terms of the the significance of it.

Um so that grant application um uh is due here, I think April 10th.

Um I need to get it to city council.

Um, they need to approve grants before they get submitted.

Um I've reached out to several consultants um to get that process started.

Any questions on that hearing none, go ahead.

Um, and then the downtown historic district vision plan.

I just wanted to let you know that I am bringing that to, and I always get the term of this committee incorrect.

The bicycle and pedestrian advisory committee.

It's either bicycle and pedestrian or it's pedestrian bicycle.

Um, it's an advisory committee that advises city staff um on issues having to do with um pedestrian and bicycle issues.

So that uh that comment was made um at the HPC meeting that that might be something that um that would be good for them to look at.

And so I do have that getting I've got that in front of them at their next meeting.

I don't have that date in front of me, but reach out to me if you're interested in that and I can get you the date.

It's also on our meeting website for for the city.

Those April.

April 13th.

Thank you.

Um, those are the two updates I have.

Certainly, if there's other questions on other projects, I can answer.

Um, if you know, if I'm able to, I will.

But oh, uh, thank you.

I'm I'm actually very happy to hear that that's going before the biking uh pedestrian committee, uh, that they can review that.

I think there's a lot of information in there that really falls under their purview that they can speak to.

Um, so I appreciate you doing that as well.

Um, are there any other questions or comments on that from the commission?

Okay.

Looks like future meetings here.

Yeah, so our next meeting is April 28th.

Um, I'm planning for it to take place in this room, um, assuming that nothing else, you know, bumps us from this room.

Tuesdays are actually um a designated county uh use of this room.

And it's just that they don't typically use it on the fourth Tuesday of the month.

So typically we're able to get in here.

Um, I do have a note that May 19th is the third Tuesday of the month.

We change that because of the holiday, the Memorial Um day holiday.

And um, this room we will be in use on that day.

So we do need to find a different location um and just kind of getting that in front of you.

We're still identifying which rooms will be open and available.

We'll either have it here in room 104, which we've met in in the past, um, or out at the development services.

And um, again, that's not next meeting, that's in May.

So just kind of getting it on your radar.

And that's all I have.

Thank you for meeting dates that we need to look at um a different location.

So thank you, coordinator Patterson Lundgren.

Um, with that, is there any other business from our commissioners?

Uh yes, go ahead, Commissioner Kessler.

Um, I wanted to give notice that I am working on a plan to address our backlog and make something that is sustainable and long-term on how we can ensure that we are continuing forward with our landmarking process.

Um, I will be hopefully getting it to staff in the next couple of weeks and then bringing it here at our next meeting.

Sounds good.

And I did receive that email.

And um, I I think that's an appropriate way to bring business to us to have us discuss it as a commission, um, coordinator Patterson Lunger, and I've I've loosely mentioned it to you, um, but I I would say you can expect court uh Commissioner Kessler to reach out via email.

Sounds good.

Um I I would say at this point too, uh, Commissioner Poyer, this would probably be an appropriate time if you wanted us to discuss uh what you were proposing at next meeting.

Um now would be a great time to potentially request that for discussion.

receive that email and um i i think that's an appropriate way to bring business to us to have us discuss it as a commission um coordinator patterns lunger and i've i've loosely mentioned it to you um but i i would say you can expect court uh commissioner kessler to reach out via email sounds good um i i would say at this point too uh commissioner poyer this would probably be an appropriate time if you wanted us to discuss uh what you were proposing at next meeting um now would be a great time to potentially request that for discussion yeah i i would i think we've laid out the information and be willing to to to give you a chance to respond and make your recommendations and discuss it at the next meeting so I'd appreciate that coordinator Patterson Leonard thank you I will plan to do that assuming that we don't have like too many applications coming in but yes understood yeah so uh commissioner poyer with that I would ask if you could also keep me in the loop on that send me the language um that you would like to discuss and make sure that coordinator Patterson Lundgren uh deputy attorney Carlson for it time to review what's being proposed and give us uh their input on that absolutely okay is there any other uh discussion or business by the commission um so the very last thing we have is our history fact of the month and commissioner Kessler uh you have the floor all right I'm very excited about this one um so in 2014 the Department of Transportation published a report conducted by Mead and Hunt architecture firm about bridge 89188 which is also known as the 7th Street Bridge across the Zumbro River near Silver Lake and this was done as part of a project to complete a comprehensive study of approximately 140 historical bridges in the state of Minnesota a lot of the facts that I bring forward are from that report um bridge 89188 was designed in 1953 and approved by city council in 1954 and completed in 1956 it's 250 feet long and approximately 70 feet wide and is one of and was one of two bridges in Rochester with the variable depth fascia girder which is the arch safe shape you see between the um where was I the piers and the ornamental railing in the modern style the bridge was the other bridge that replicated this similar style was replaced in 1997 making that seventh street bridge the only historical bridge left in Rochester with these features when Gilbert H.

McMillan submitted designs to the city council he submitted four designs the city chose to accept the plan that we see today on March 10th 1954.

In doing so the council chose a design that more closely aligned with the style of the Silver Lake Park which was nearby the Silver Lake Park was developed in 1930 so it was also of that modern style that we see um having it being built in the 1950s with that 1930s style was a little bit unusual but we believe that it was done with the idea of harmony to exist between the park and the new bridge in the 70 years that the bridge has existed it's experienced some minor modifications to account for snow plows regular wear and tear and restoration because of the modern style and the minimal repairs the 2014 report identified this bridge as an eligible listing for the National Register of Historical places for its highly artistic value.

In 2019 the bridge was repaired and restored in addition to the structural changes that were made to ensure the safety and stability of the bridge in the sidewalks restoration was done to the railing posts and panels the restoration work included repairing original pieces to stop corrosion and repainted the rails back to the original color of dark green the addendum which is where I got this information to the original port was report was completed by WHKS engineering in 2023.

In the past six years I personally have probably traveled across this bridge about a thousand times um I've seen it a thousand more walking around Silver Lake as that's where I live and or taking my daughter to one of the parks nearby to me this has always been a structure in our city worth taking a minute to admire um specifically when the sun sets over it um you can imagine the sun setting behind the city line there it's very beautiful and I definitely hope you all take a minute to enjoy the beauty that's there um and to remember the history of this bridge thank you commissioner Kessler okay with that we have nothing left before us and I would invite a motion to adjourn I'll motion to adjourn okay motion to adjourn by Commissioner Tater I'll second we'll give the second to Commissioner muchler okay all in favor say aye.

All right we are adjourned