Good morning all and welcome.

I'd like to call the meeting to order for the Historic and Design Review Commission compliance and technical advisory board for Friday September 19th, 2025.

Can I have a roll call, please?

Davis.

Present.

Here.

Here.

Spiller.

Here.

Setzer.

Fullerton.

Pollock.

Here.

Vasquez.

Here.

We have a quorum.

Thank you.

Translation Services.

Good morning.

Buenos días.

Passing por favor a la cabina que se encuentra in the part of conferencias.

Gracias.

Hasta luego.

Thank you.

The compliance and technical advisory board is an advisory board appointed by the city council.

I am Jason Vasquez Vice Chair and Juanita Cipulveda is the chairwoman.

It is a function of the board to advise the city manager and all relevant city departments concerning certain applications for permits for his properties and historic districts and landmarks.

The board shall be guided by the city's unified development code and design guidelines and standards that have been adopted by city council.

An appeal of a decision by an administrative official can be filed in accordance with the city's unified development code.

If anyone present wishes to speak in favor or in opposition to any item on today's agenda, please sign up on the public comments sheet.

It is not necessary to sign up if you are the owner of or representative for a project on the agenda.

You will be called on as the case is called.

Speakers will be called upon in the order in which they are signed up.

Following public testimony, any commissioner may call upon any speaker to respond to further questions.

Approval by the board does not take the place of any type of permit.

Permits must be obtained for all work.

Certificates of appropriateness for work approved by the board will be emailed to you within 10 days.

No work of any type is to be started without obtaining the appropriate city permits after a certificate of appropriateness has been issued by the Office of Historic Preservation.

At this time, please silence your cell phones.

And staff announcements.

Roll call, please.

Davis, aye.

Garcia?

Aye.

Regard.

Aye.

Spiller.

Aye.

Fullerton.

Aye.

Pollock?

Aye.

And Vasquez.

Aye.

Motion carries.

Thank you.

Okay, if you can draw your attention to the screen, please.

Um we have a light agenda today, just three items on consent.

Um we don't have any public comments or speakers signed in to speak.

Um you do have a couple of letters in your packets to reference.

Um but at this point we can entertain a motion on the consent agenda, which is items one through three.

Is there any commissioners wishing to pull any ag consent agenda items?

Um that are currently on the consent agenda.

If not, can I ask for a motion, please?

I make a motion that we approve the uh consent items on the agenda.

Sarah's second.

I'll second.

Thank you.

Roll call, please.

Davis, aye.

Garcia, aye.

Bergard.

Aye.

Spiller.

Aye.

Fullerton.

Aye.

Pollock.

Aye.

And Vasquez.

Aye.

Motion carries.

Thank you.

If you're on the consent agenda and your address is 303 West Graham Mercy Place, 246 Thorne Boulevard, and 507 East Wee Satch Avenue.

Your case has been approved, and you do not need to stay for the remainder of this hearing.

If you have any questions, please contact a member of staff.

Your certificate of appropriateness or commission action letter will be prepared and emailed to you within 10 days.

Great.

We'll uh move forward with the individual agenda items.

First step is 624 East Gunther Street.

So uh CTAP case 2025-228.

This is for 624 East Gunther Street.

The applicant is requesting a certificate of appropriateness for approval of replacement sighting already installed on the primary structure.

Staff does not recommend approval of the request based on the findings.

Staff recommends the new sighting be replaced with in-kind sighting that matches the original sighting and profile, dimensions, material, and finish.

A sighting sample must be provided to staff for field verification prior to installation.

And the applicant is here in person, and we do have a verbal confirmation that he's willing to go with staff recommendations.

If the the applicant is um would would come to the podium, please.

Thanks, Adrian.

Hi there.

And then you'll just push the button to speak and just state your name and address.

Chris Nagley.

624 East Gunther.

Great, welcome.

Was there anything you wanted to mention besides that you're willing to go with the staff recommendations?

No, I'm I'm happy with the recommendations and I want to follow them and basically give them samples before the next we do anything else.

Great.

Great.

Uh let me ask my colleagues if there's any questions before we move forward.

Is there any questions from my colleagues on the left?

On my right?

No.

Uh somebody's online, I think.

Chris Fuller.

Chris, any questions online?

He's here now.

Oh.

Oh, Chris Chris is in person.

Sorry to put you on the spot, Chris.

Uh did you have any questions regarding uh the Gunther Street?

Uh given the uh case interstitom.

Thank you.

Can ask for a motion, please.

I make a motion we accept the staff recommendation on this uh Gunther address.

Is there a second?

Second.

Can you have a roll call, please?

Davis.

Aye.

Garcia?

Aye.

Brigard?

Aye.

Spiller.

Aye.

Fullerton?

Aye.

Pollock?

Aye.

And Vasquez.

Aye.

Motion carries.

Thank you.

Please work with staff and you should be good.

Thank you.

Thanks for your time.

Next case.

Agenda item number five, CTAB case number 2025-234, 238 Quentin Drive.

The applicant's requesting a certificate of appropriateness for approval to replace an existing side balcony fence with a four-foot-tall iron fence with finials.

Staff recommends approval of the request based on findings A through C with the following stipulation.

One that the applicant install a traditional balcony railing to feature both a top and bottom rail.

The bottom rail should feature vertical orientation and should be installed approximately three to four inches above the porch decking.

Both top and bottom rails should be constructed from two by four members.

And uh Mr.

Hubbard, if you'd like to come up to the podium, introduce yourself, and then walk the commissioners to your request.

You'll have 15 minutes to do so.

Good morning.

My name is Ron Hubbard, and that is my property 238 quinta and all.

What is in question is right above the garage, the fenced area right there.

And what I'm requesting, I can live with the staff's recommendation of the wood, the base and the top.

I have found things since this that will be even better.

And what I'd like to do, I realize this is highly unorthodox because new material being added in.

But I have found if you could go back to the front view of the uh window.

I have found uh wrought that is very similar to the bottom portion of the wrought iron that goes across the front portion of the balcony.

I would like to incorporate that inside of a wood fence going across making it, but I would like it to be four feet high.

Uh the reason for it, 36 inches is what the uh standard is for architecture, and that is fine, except for I'm very that's where 36 inches sits on me.

And if I'm going to be using my own, excuse me, if I'm going to be using my own balcony, and at my age I am out to turn 65.

Uh I don't want to have to worry about stumbling and suddenly falling over because the railing for my balcony is only hitting me at my just below my hip and all.

So I would like it to four foot tall going all the way through.

I can do everything else with the staff has recommended in the way of it being wood on the base and the bottom being raised up.

But again, I'd like to incorporate then the raw iron.

And I have an example of the wrought iron here.

I've been able to find panels.

Uh so if y'all would like to see that, you're more than welcome to.

Um your decision.

Sure, thank you.

Um and you're asking to go from three feet to four feet.

No, it's presently the lowest point on there is roughly five feet, uh.

That one going across, and it's actually at the very top at the corners, that is six feet.

Oh, jeez.

Okay.

Well, let me open it up to questions from my colleagues.

Uh I was just, I was just gonna add, I think I think it's the staff's recommendation that is three feet.

And so he's asking, I think, to have something taller than the side.

I'm asking for at least four feet, yes.

Yeah.

Any questions from my colleagues on the left besides?

Yeah, I have a question if that's okay.

Uh this is to staff.

So um the introduction of uh the new material that he has found.

Is that would that still be in accordance with your recommendations?

Would it still apply to the recommendations that you have?

Not not the not the feet part, but the new materials.

I'm not sure.

Let's clarify um the proposed new material because we only have what's in the application, so we're gonna put that on the ceiling cam here.

And so you're saying you would do something where there would be these panels spaced in between.

I even sketched it out if you want to go further with that.

It's not a very good sketch.

Uh, but if you'd go back to the front portion of the house, that is roughly 10 and a half feet going across.

Uh keeping the wood in the center and at the edges, I would bring those posts down from six feet, which they presently are, to four feet, and then have the wood going across and then where the squiggly lines are at.

I would have at least two, if not three, depending on uh the symmetry going across for that.

Those panels are eight inches, I believe, wide, I don't remember, and they're 32 inches high.

Um so I would incorporate that into the fence where it says the raw iron going down, and I'd either have two or three spread out along that area, and then again along the side of it, which I mean you can't even see that, but along the side, the same thing.

Uh, same design.

That is approximately 20.

I'm sorry, 18 and a half feet uh going down the side.

So it has one to it has four sections of the six-foot post.

Uh those four uh six foot posts would be cut down to four feet, and then the railing, wood railing going through, and then again spacing out this raw iron along the side uh to complement uh going all the way through.

Uh it is my intention.

The this all started with the I was repainting the house, which I went through and done uh when I went to repaint the fence, uh that's when I had so much wood rot that I did not know about coming off on the side over here.

If you could uh go back to some of the previous pictures, that way they could see the inside of the garage.

Um that is what I'm dealing with on the inside, and that hole down here at the bottom is where the middle post on the side is coming through.

So I'm replacing that going all the way through, and as long as I can replace that, I'm gonna keep all those other wood ones there going all the way through.

And so, commissioners, our recommendation was really to get at uh the solution that redmore is a balcony railing versus fencing over the garage is a little unconventional.

Um, and so that was our recommendation regarding the height.

Um but uh this is a different proposal.

You all can consider that based on the testimony of the applicant here.

Any other questions from my left over here on my right?

Uh yes.

Um, between the wrought iron panels that you have uh shown here.

Uh what is in there in between the two?

There's not going, it's gonna be open space just like the front panels on the uh front portion of the house.

Um now on those they do have the it has one line of a raw iron going all the way down right there.

Um, and if need be, I can even go ahead and place those in there, but I'm trying to keep this portion as simple as possible, not that way it doesn't take away from the raw iron and the look of the actual house itself, and keeping it on the house and not on um that is a deck on the side of the house.

Uh okay, thank you.

And I have a couple of questions for staff.

Uh one wouldn't you still need to have no more than a four-inch clearing between your vertical rails by code?

Yeah, for a balcony railing, you can't have any sort of opening that is larger than four inches in diameter.

So that would be problematic here.

Um and then my other question is is this really considered a balcony?

Looks like a flat roof to me.

That was my question to them also because they keep referring to it as a balcony.

Yes, thank you.

Uh it's that staff will give that this is an interesting or certainly unique situation.

Um so you have this side-facing garage that um appears um contemporary with the construction of the house.

And so um there's not really much evidence to show other than Google Street images dating back to 2007 to show that this is was historically used as an upper patio balcony uh configuration.

Um the main point from staff is is whether or not, or the main question from staff is is whether or not the installation of a fence would be appropriate on top of a um structure.

Right.

So that in essence is my question as well, uh, because what's there now looks pretty temporary.

Um I see that as slightly problematic.

Um also uh commissioner, just to add some clarity as well.

So this configuration here with the six feet to four or five feet, and then it uh pitches back upward to six feet as you see on the screen, has been on the structure at least since 2007 as well, um, if that provides any clarity.

All right.

Um may I address one of your questions you said about the four-inch.

I have no problem.

Um I will be raising that doesn't show it too well, but I'll be raising that bottom rail that four inches above.

So I have but it's also the spacing between your wrought iron panels that you're proposing.

I don't know what that distance is between it, but it can't be more than four inches.

Oh, that cannot I realize that.

Um I did not know that.

I can very easily, as I said, I will add in more of those panels.

Uh those wrought iron panels.

I have no problem doing that.

Uh again, all that I truly want is I'm calling it a fence.

You can call it a railing, I don't care what you call it.

I just want something that is going to be high enough that as I enjoy my deck out there, excuse me, uh, that as I come near the edge, I'm not gonna be worrying about oh, I should could possibly trip and fall over.

Um so if it is a matter of adding more, I will add in if you want in between, I can add in those same railings.

Uh I will find a number of them uh to go ahead, or if you are saying it should be like the uh one single post that is coming on the front between those railings on the front port, I will do that also.

I have I don't have a problem with that whatsoever.

Um said, my biggest uh problem or obstacle is I want to keep it at least four feet.

Are you finished?

Thank you.

Go ahead.

Uh I have a question.

The uh metal railings that are there now, the balcony railings, how tall, what's the total height of those?

Uh those are 32 inches.

So in essence, you're gonna have 32 inches and then four feet.

That's I'll these railings that I have here, those are only 32 inches.

And so I will be by the time you take into account that bottom portion coming up four inches.

I'm gonna be building a wood railing at the bottom so these can be placed inside and held securely.

Uh that'll be taking up roughly at least five, six inches, and then to balance it out up on top uh would be another four inches.

So it would be roughly forty two to forty-six inches, uh, maybe even forty-eight, that's why I'm asking for the four foot and all.

Brian, was there any uh comments or anything submitted by the neighborhood?

Um no vice chair, there was no comment from um from the public for this request.

Thank you.

Go ahead.

I would just like to make a comment that um I think regardless of whatever the height is that there needs to be a consistency in the design of the of the railing throughout.

You've found a panel that did you say matches this design or is very clear.

Uh if you'd like to look at it, and then uh these panels that are on the front.

I mean, obviously those are staying, those are very much similar to the 1950s, 1960s looks that you always see of kind of a grape vine going all the way through, and that's what this panel uh is the best are the only one I have found so far.

I found other panels that are much shorter.

Uh and I found other panels that are larger, um, but none being able to be consistent with the um grape vine wreath on the front portion of the house.

And just for clarity's sake, you are going to be uh also modifying the existing railing, is that correct?

Bringing up the height of that.

Uh for the fence.

For the existing one, the existing rail.

Um, uh no, those are all nothing is gonna be done on that front porch.

This is only on the deck above the garage.

So anything that um is put up there is not gonna be consistent with the height of what's here.

Um the best I can tell you is if you see the uh wood going across the very top over there, that support beam going across right there.

Uh that will be a little bit lower or about that height.

That's gonna be where the wood for the railing would start at.

And then as I go downward and now drop it by five inches or so, four inches, and that will be where the raw iron would start, and that would go down 32 inches, and so um the raw iron that is on the balcony right now, uh that is three inches above the level portion of the balcony.

So it will be close to it, it's not gonna match it exactly.

Yes.

All right.

Um I know that our um is not to design things.

However, um I would say that um given you know, normally we say things like should match existing in material profile dimension, etc.

Um.

So I'm having some problems with um the design that you've come up with.

Uh just hold on.

No, I'm sorry.

Um so my recommend I make a recommendation.

Should I?

And what am I go ahead?

Oh no, I I just would like to echo my colleagues' uh concern, I think.

Um I I have a similar concern.

My my concern is is that with your current design, and I realize it's just a sketch, I understand that all of the white um grines uh as as they were that the panels are not going to align.

So you will have the two current balcony ones.

What are those?

There's eight there or six, I guess.

And then the the ones that you are wanting to build or import implement are going to be above that, even if it's an inch, two inches, whatever, so it won't be congruent, it'll be incongruent, and so you'll have the these that look like this up there.

Is that is that what you're getting at?

Uh yes, that's part of my concern, along with him introducing a new material, which would be wood instead of the metal.

Agreed, I echo my colleagues.

Um I'm only introducing the wood because that's what they said they wanted.

And so I was trying to incorporate what uh they were saying was their recommendation of the wood going across.

Uh if we don't need the wood, I'll be more than happy to go without the wood and do the raw iron going across.

Would you be open to doing the wrought iron at the same height as the current balcony?

Uh no, again, I am six foot one and the wrought iron uh for finding this.

I found a flat one that is goes all the way across that is four feet high, and I have found this one to match the um grape vine in the front, and that is 31 or 32 inches, whatever uh it says on here.

So if I just took straight that uh and raised it even up two inches, uh and then had the raw iron at the top and all, uh and then saying where those current wood posts are at.

I'm assuming then that uh the panel would not want me to keep those wood railings, they would want it to all be raw iron.

Yeah.

So I understand.

Um those would still be coming up just a little bit higher, so two inches on that side, so that would still put it right at about 36 inches for the height of it and all.

And again, for me enjoying it and my age.

Um I I want to be able to enjoy the whole thing.

Sure.

Um it sounds like uh my colleagues are in unison about concern with the height um differential between the what's originally there on the balcony, the real balcony, and then what's above the garage.

Um, and I'm I understand that.

I mean that's that's what y'all's job is is to listen to them and listen to me.

And so uh but uh go ahead.

Um I I have a question for staff.

Uh by code is the uh railing height for let's say a balcony, isn't that 42 inches?

Or is it 48 these days?

It's not 48.

I think it's between 36 and 42.

So would that be a height you'd consider that would be three feet six inches?

So in other words, three and a half feet.

Three and a half feet.

Reaching a compromise is what we're saying.

I don't have a problem with the three and a half feet.

That'll be fine because 40 inches is gonna come here.

I can feel much more comfortable than having it right here.

So I don't have a problem with um three and a half feet of 40 inches and um so just to make sure that I'm hearing this correctly, then um, well, we haven't we haven't made a motion.

I don't know, but my colleagues are gonna agree with that or not.

But I had the height by code.

J Z.

Go ahead.

Yeah, thank you.

I I just want to clarify a couple things.

That wooden structure that there that's there now, it's six feet at the highest point, right?

Yes.

And we know it's been there since 2007, is that right?

Yes.

And so if he had never come before us today, that would remain at six feet without question, no one questioned it.

He's here today to ask to put something nicer in.

But he could have kept like a six-foot fence if he didn't come in.

Uh if it if it had been removed, then yes, he could maintain it, but now that it's been fully removed, we're trying to get to like the best uh solution here.

And so you removed it because it has not been fully removed.

I painting and coming across, if you could go to any one of those pictures right there on the side.

I removed the um the uh slats themselves.

Because on the side one, if you can tell, uh those were starting to fall off because of the rotten wood.

And so that's when I realized, no, this is a safety hazard.

You can see that all this stuff in front of this one thing, you can't see it very well.

I have uh tied some very good rope around it to make sure, because that is the one that is rotten going all the way down.

So making sure that it's not going to fall over and all.

So it has not been removed all the way through.

Um the slats, the that is what is what you see, that is what goes all the way around, going all the way through.

So those six foot posts are still still there.

And so um you're only addressing this because there's wood rot, and you need something that's safe.

Uh there is wood rot underneath and in the way of doing it, uh trying to make it a little bit more aesthetically pleasing, uh, bringing it down from that larger height to a smaller height.

Uh truly, I am trying to make a little bit more aesthetically pleasing uh because all of this is going to be painted the same white as that raw iron going all the way around.

So I'll just say like I don't I don't echo the comments I've heard today because I think safety and that railing height is something to be considered.

Um and I think that there, you know, maybe design-wise, that's a very quick sketch.

Um, but I think maybe there's a way to maybe come back with a more detailed sketch if that's problematic or concerning um with with maybe some of the materials or something else at most, but I would say that if it's been that way since 2007 without incident, he's actually already bringing it down and compromising from a six-foot.

Um and I do think that the safety issue is to be considered he's not asking to change anything that is with the house, he's asking to change something that was obviously put in afterwards.

That's you know, I mean, I don't take issue with personally, but I could understand why it wouldn't be aesthetically pleasing.

Great.

Any additional yeah, I have one follow-up question for the owner.

Um would you be if if it if approved, would you be carrying around carrying the wrought iron um design around to the side?

Oh yes, most definitely, as I said.

Um the well, the panel and I have found um through research, they have 24 panels.

And so if I can get those, great.

If uh I can't get those, at least I know I can still be looking.

Um as I had said, going around the front part.

If it is only four that's going to make it look right, then that's what I'll use.

If there needs to be five or six, then that's what I'll use, and I'll continue that same pattern going along the side.

Great.

Oh, one more question.

I'm this may be directed to staff.

I'm not sure, but I really don't understand the purpose of the wood going across the top.

And it it doesn't match what's there on the balcony.

I think there's been a miscommunication.

Staff isn't requiring it to be wood.

Well, what was proposed was uh a wrought iron fence, and so well no, and that's what I had proposed, a wrought iron fence, but in y'all's proposal recommendation, it says wood going top and bottom of the railing.

Uh so that was y'all's recommendation Yeah, uh so just to offer some um clarification from staff.

So staff isn't recommending um the installation of a uh metal and wood railing uh for this location.

So staff's general standard recommendation for any railing on porches or balconies um is a traditional wood railing.

So that would include um completely wood members with the top and bottom rail with vertical slats as well.

And so um the proposal that the applicant has brought today um staff is seeing it today as well.

So our recommendation is not addressing um this new design.

If it were uh staff would make the recommendation that it um that that it would be more of the traditional balcony railing as uh stated in our recommendation, but um staff is not recommending uh or is not stipulating that railing should feature both metal and wood.

Uh a fully wrought iron railing would be completely appropriate.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Can I ask for a motion, please?

Um I'd like to make a motion to support staff's recommendation uh with the stipulation that um the height, the proposed height of the railing um be what is stipulated in the building code.

Support staff's recommendation with the stipulation that the height, the proposed height of the railing, be what is stipulated in the building code, and that the owner or the applicant work with staff to come up with an appropriate design.

Can I request a maximum height as part of that stipulation?

Because that means there's a minimum in the code of 36 for residential and 42 for commercial.

But if we're looking, there's a difference between a railing like on a stair or a railing on a balcony, and I think the balcony railing is 42 inches.

For commercial it is.

Correct, it's 36 for residential.

That was what I was going to ask the my fellow commissioners if it would be not to exceed 36 inches or or what the recommendation was.

Question.

If you take the wood out of the picture, what would be the overall height then?

For are you asking me?

If you're taking the wood out of the overall equation, and I'm assuming it's going to be uh metal railings as well as the top and bottom.

Uh that could be any height uh that I could go ahead and get um with it going ahead.

I would say then uh if nothing else to make sure there's at least two or three inches at the bottom.

That way water can run off and it's not gonna be running into the middle of the railing.

And so uh that two or three inches added on to um I would say 32 inches, so it'd be 35 inches at the top of it uh using these panels that I have found.

And um, I have also found a four-foot one that is four foot by eight foot uh that is on here, it is just straight bar.

That is what I originally sent to them.

I found that through just going through's and home depot.

I had not gone to the internet yet trying to find these other panels.

I just didn't have the time uh when I was submitting this.

So now I've gone through and started looking for them.

Thank you, Mr.

Hubbard.

Um there's a motion on the floor.

Would you like to modify your motion?

Um I um yes, I will modify it and say that um I would like to make a motion that uh support staff's recommendation and that you work with staff including the height that they're recommending and that you work with staff in terms of um what that what the material it is and what it looks like and is that is that including sorry if you want clarification that that height would be three feet as recommended by staff I'll second that can have a roll club oh sorry discussion if there's no discussion a roll call please Davis Nay Garcia Yes Brigard Aye Spiller I Fullerton Pollock Nay and Vasquez Aye motion carries thank you please work with staff on uh next steps.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you.

That concludes the meeting.

Thank you.