Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

Thank you all for being here today.

My name is Dwayne Nelson.

I'm the chair of the Building Standards Board for 15 October 2025.

Thanks for being here.

If we could, let's have a roll call, please.

Robert Tapia.

Anne Weiner.

Present.

While that shrecking goes.

Fred Andes.

Doris Elise.

Present.

Paul Hernandez.

Present.

Robert Banke.

Dwayne Nelson.

Present.

Dr.

Alinda Lopez Rodriguez.

Present.

Kayla Miranda.

Joel Solis.

Present.

George Grimes Jr.

Present.

Yvonne Addison.

Present.

Also meeting in also present in the meeting from the City of San Antonio or Lisinda Orozco from the City Attorney's Office and from Development Services.

Amin Tomas, Director.

Melissa Ramidez, Deputy Director.

Danny Ligaz, Code Enforcement Administrator.

Jenny Ramidez, Code Enforcement Manager.

Melissa Garza, Administrative Assistant 2.

Estorties, Development Services Specialist 1.

Eric Burns from City Attorney's Office, and myself, Judy Creom Development Services Specialist Supervisor.

Chair Accorem is present.

Thank you.

As we've said, a quorum is present.

Please silence your cell phone or any device that may disrupt this public hearing.

No person shall disrupt or delay the proceedings or disobey the orders of the chair.

If anyone present wishes to speak regarding any agenda item, please sign in on the persons to be heard sheet or advise the code enforcement staff member.

All persons wishing to speak shall be called forward in the respective cases to be reached or is reached.

Please note that it is unlawful for any person present of the building to solicit or pedal services regarding any property under consideration by this board during the course of this public hearing as per City Code Section 16-236.

The City of San Antonio does provide translation services for anyone who made the assistance in that.

If we could let's have a translation of that fact.

If none, Chair would entertain a motion.

And I motion that we accept the minutes as is for May 15, 2025.

The motion is to accept the minutes of May 15, 2025.

Do I have a second?

This is Joel Slace, I'll second.

Any discussion.

All in favor of the motion to approve the minutes of 15 May 2025 say aye.

Aye.

Those opposed say nay.

The motion carries unanimously.

If we could, we have a update on a couple of demolitions that we had.

Good morning, board members.

Good morning.

My name is Jenny Ramirez, Code Enforcement Manager.

I do have a couple of items turned into the record, if I may proceed.

Yes, please.

Let's see.

First item is 118 Maureen Drive.

Structure located in Council District 3 was demolished as an emergency on October the 2nd of 2025 due to an extensive fire which occurred on September the 18th of 2025.

Pursuant to Chapter 6-175.

No further action is needed by the board at this time.

This was an accessory structure that was vacant.

There are before and after photos.

Next location.

Structure located at 5230 Grove Hill Street, located in Council District 7, was demolished as an emergency on October the 3rd of 2025 due to an extensive fire which occurred on September 26 of 2025.

Pursuant to Chapter 6-175.

No further action is needed by the board at this time.

This was the main structure.

It was vacant and their before and after photos as well.

That does complete my report this morning unless there's any questions on these two properties.

Does the board have any questions alongside properties?

There are none.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.

Thank you.

No more than we get started at 9 06.

The building standards board will adjourn for an executive session to discuss legal matters with council.

The time is now 1031 on 15 October, 16 October.

The building standards board will reconvene from executive session.

No action was taken in executive session.

So the full board is now fully present.

One of the things that I did not do is recognize one of our newest members, Yvonne Addison is here.

And like always, Vaughn, we put you on the end of the roll, and you begin to come back this way sometime.

But welcome to the board.

It's good to have you present.

Thank you.

The next item on the agenda is selection for the chair and vice chair for the Sanitonial Building Standards Board.

Nominations for the chair are now open.

Do we have any nominations for chair?

Mr.

Chairman.

Yes, sir.

I nominate Dwyn Nelson for uh chairman of the board.

Thank you, George.

Appreciate that.

This is Ann Weiner.

I second it.

And a second on that one.

Do we have any other nominations, however?

Yeah, I know.

Any other nominations on the floor?

There's got to be somebody who's better than I am.

All right, I'll I'll throw mine in there.

Okay, thanks, Fred.

Appreciate it.

That'll make you feel better.

It makes me feel a whole lot better.

And any other nominations.

Nominations are closed.

If you would have a roll call, please for vote.

Chair, we can get a second for Mr.

Andes' nomination, please.

I'm sorry, say it again, please.

A second.

A second.

I will second it for it then.

When I state your name, if you can please let me know if you'll be voting for Mr.

Nelson or Mr.

Andes.

Ann Weiner.

Mr.

Nelson.

Roll Ed Shrek and Ghost?

Mr.

Nelson.

Fred Andes.

I guess me.

Yes.

Doris Olis.

Mr.

Nelson.

Paula Hernandez.

Mr.

Andes.

Robert Banky.

Mr.

Nelson.

Dwayne Nelson.

Duane Nelson.

Dr.

Linda Lopez Rodriguez.

Mr.

Nelson.

Kayla Miranda.

Mr.

Dolphin.

Joel Zolise.

Mr.

Nelson.

George Grimes Jr.

Mr.

Nelson.

Evon Addison.

Mr.

Nelson.

Motion passes with a vote of 10 to 2 for Mr.

Nelson as a BSB board chair.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

I appreciate the confidence that you at least uh shared at least with the vote.

Nominations are now open for the vice chair position.

Robert Binky, I'd like to nominate Brad Andes.

Thank you.

This is George Graham's second.

And second, okay.

Any other nominations?

Sabina, I don't know that we can allow you to actually nominate anyone today.

Did you state your name at the I would like to nominate?

It is an issue that we're gonna have to bring you to the podium to do that.

So you withdraw.

Okay, thank you.

Mrs.

Ann Weiner, I'd like to nominate Kayla Miranda.

Kayla, okay, thank you.

Second by Rawl at Shrek and Ghost.

I'm sorry, say it again, please.

Second by Raleigh Shrinking Goes.

Okay, thank you very much.

Any other nominations?

Nominations are closed.

We'll have a roll call, please.

When I call your name, if you can please let me know if you're voting for Mr.

Andes or Miss Miranda.

Anne Weiner.

Ms.

Miranda.

Roll Ed Shrek and goes?

Ms.

Miranda.

Fred Andes.

Dora Solis.

Mr.

Andes.

Paul Hernandez.

Mr.

Andes.

Robert Benkey.

Dwayne Nelson.

Kayla Miranda.

Dr.

Linda Lopez Rodriguez.

Kayla Miranda.

Kayla Miranda.

Myself.

Joel Solis.

Kayla Miranda.

George Grimes Jr.

Mr.

Anders.

Yvonne Addison.

Kayla Miranda.

We have a motion of five to seven for Ms.

Miranda as a BSB vice chair.

Thank you.

At this time, we're going to move into the presentations by the staff.

And the first one is going to be the deputy director's report.

We're going to hear the vacant building program by Miss Kathy Rodriguez first.

That'll be fine.

I'll allow you to do that.

Thank you, Chair Nelson.

Good morning, members of the board.

Good morning.

It's nice to see familiar faces and new faces.

I always like to thank you all for your volunteering, you know, volunteering your time to serve and to your commitment to our community.

I'm Kathy Rodriguez.

I'm the Deputy Historic Preservation Officer for the City of San Antonio.

But today I'm going to talk to you not just about historic properties, but about the vacant building program here in San Antonio.

Am I driving camera?

Okay.

Oops.

Let's see.

There we go.

So I'd like to give you all just a brief overview of the program in general, an overview of the ordinance itself, and a couple of stats about what is in the inventory and where these structures are.

So the vacant building program, when it started back in 2015, was a uh temporary, it was a pilot program for 18 months, and it covered mostly the downtown area of San Antonio.

After those 18 months, City Council was happy with the results of the pilot and decided to make it a permanent program.

At that point, they did expand the footprint of the program area to include about 109 square miles of the city.

Since then, 2017, there's been two other expansions of the program area.

And uh in a minute when I describe the program area, you'll understand how it can also just slowly grow as policies around neighborhoods change and evolve over time.

And the charge of the program was really to better address the issues associated with vacant structures, and I think you all are very familiar with those.

Um but also it was an opportunity to work with community to find out what are the um the circumstances that are leading to long-term break vacancy.

What are the challenges that property owners might be facing, and what couldn't we be doing better as a city to address those?

And of course, it's always in the best interest of everybody if we can reuse existing buildings, if we can bring those buildings back to life.

And that is also something that we try to do with our program.

So the current program area, I always describe it this way.

If you think about areas of town where city city policy is in place to revitalize or to affect change, that's where you're gonna find the program.

So of course we are in historic districts, but we're also outside of historic districts.

Neighborhood conservation districts, TURS areas, buffers around some of those areas, outside of our active military bases as well as Port San Antonio and Brooks.

And then our most recent expansion was a thousand-foot buffer around all open schools within the city limits of San Antonio.

So as you can see, we're in every um council district and every corner of the city.

And now we're at about 200 square miles, so just about half of the city limits right now are um part of the uh vacant building program.

So an ordinance overview.

So this describes a little bit about how we uh go about managing cases.

So our team, my team is made up of case managers, not code enforcement officers.

And part of the reason is as I mentioned, we really want to work with owners to do something with these buildings.

Yes, we are able to file court cases, municipal court cases against owners who don't comply, but that's not always going to give us the result that we want.

The result that we want is an improved and reused structure.

So the way the property, the way the ordinance reads, is we identify a structure, and we do that a few ways.

And one is working with development services.

When they identify dangerous premises, we also are alerted by those so that we could see if there's a property that we can affect some change on.

So we identify them through that collaboration, through reporting, and then we have a staff member who's out in the field pretty much every day surveying or going through these areas, hoping to identify new vacant structures so that we can bring them into the program.

Once they're identified, we do notify the owners.

They have 90 days to register their properties.

If they fail to do that, we will issue a failure to register notice and then follow up with a municipal court case.

And there's some notification periods associated with that.

So from beginning to identifying to potentially taking a property to court, it takes about six months.

And you're probably wondering why does that take so long?

Because in code enforcement, they can be a bit more swift.

And in the interim, we do work with DSD and their staff.

If there's issues that need to be abated immediately and there's ordinances in place to do that, then we will do that.

But this program, when it was first developed, was done through a group of stakeholders at that time who felt that we wanted to work with owners.

We wanted to give them plenty of time to comply.

A little bit of that is changing, and I'll show you in a moment in our stats that we're really going to be bolstering enforcement more in the next year, and that is a result of feedback we've received from council during the budget process.

The other item that vacant property owners need to comply with, yes, they need to register, and registration is important because then that means we have an individual's contact information that we could reach out to if we need to address issues.

The registration packet also includes a no trespassing affidavit, so we can make sure we have that on file.

And then the last piece is a plan of action.

How do they plan on reusing?

How do they plan on making repairs?

How do they plan on coming into compliance?

Now, of course, anyone has the right to have a vacant structure.

So as an owner, you have that right.

But it must meet a minimum standard of care, and you must register it every year and it will be inspected every year.

If you are a single family homeowner and that vacant building meets the standard of care, then you are exempt from the program.

And the reason that's in place is we want to make sure we're not causing undue hardship on owners that are good stewards of their structures.

Sometimes there's settlement of value associated with the home.

It could be a family member's home that was passed down.

This gives them an opportunity to retain that as long as it's maintained, then they're not subject to any of our rules.

But standard of care in general just means that the outside of the structure is well maintained, that there's a good solid building envelope to help provide some longevity to the structure.

It cannot be boarded up with plywood.

It should have doors in place and it should have windows in place.

But what we really look at is to make sure that the envelope of that building is being well maintained.

Because we all know that's going to make sure that we are addressing issues of potential trespassers, dangerous structures, the condition of the structure can decline significantly if that building envelope is not cared for.

Also, is working with, I always say we have two customers, the vacant building property owner and the neighbors that live next door.

So we do a lot of education and outreach working with communities and neighborhood associations as well as with our owners.

Our website is a very good resource, and I recommend it when you have an opportunity to take a look at it.

It'll describe in more detail what registration looks like.

They can register online.

It does also describe fee waivers.

So if a property owner may be in the middle of pulling permits and making some improvements, that's great.

That's great.

We need you to register, but we can give you a fee waiver while you're doing that work and moving towards completing your goals with your property.

It also is a way that you can report a vacant building.

So in your neighborhood, if you come across one and it's in our program area, this is a good way to report.

It can be anonymous.

And there's also an option there for you to add a photo if you'd like to go ahead and do that when you're reporting that building.

We also have resources for property owners.

So there are organizations and nonprofits out there that are assisting community with some of the issues associated with vacant buildings.

For example, air's properties or unclear titles.

So there are some nonprofits out there that will help residents or owners who made assistance may need assistance with that, and we like to list that on the website so that they can have access to that.

This last year we did an assessment of who are, you know, what is the face of the individuals that own vacant buildings in San Antonio.

In our inventory, which usually teeters around a thousand properties, anywhere between 800 and a thousand properties.

Primarily those are going to be single family properties.

And the majority of those are local owners.

And the majority of those are owners that only own one additional property.

Now, of course, there are businesses out there that are also uh owners of these structures, LLCs, which are sometimes a challenge to pursue enforcement against, but we have learned that the majority, the typical person in our inventory is going to be uh someone around the ages of 50 to 60 years old and just owns one other building and associate uh in addition to their residence.

Why is that important?

It's important because it determines how we assist them and what our strategies could be to help them resolve the issues.

The truth is when we encounter an individual, they don't know where to begin.

They're dealing with code issues, they're not sure how to navigate the permitting process.

We help connect them with the resource.

We know they may have limited funds.

So we'll go and meet with them on site and help them work through the priorities.

With their budget, where should they be focusing those efforts so that they can get closer and closer to compliance and to resolving the issues associated with their building.

Also, if they're interested in selling, they're not required to sell.

But if they're thinking the best thing for them to do with that structure is to sell it to someone else so that they can move on with um another project, we're happy to help them promote those through social media or through our website.

Of course, we'd only do that with their permission.

And we don't broker any deals, but from time to time we get people interested in in potential properties to redevelop.

So we actually maintain the list.

The inventory of vacant structures is available on our website, and we provide basic information about the property.

But um, if we can help to assist connect a re a developer or redevelopment with an owner, then we would be happy to do that.

So in FY24 and FY25, we collected some stats just to kind of think about our actions.

So my team is small but mighty, I always say.

There's six of us all together covering 200 square miles of the city and almost a thousand cases.

So we do the very best that we can, and I think we do a really nice job.

Um we've actually increased the number of inspections.

Um sorry, we've actually increased the number of citations that we've issued from 2024 to 2025.

Um I know the numbers there, you know what?

I think they forgot to switch.

Yeah, they forgot to switch 24 and 25 because I asked her to do it in the other direction.

We have increased.

Um I mentioned a moment ago that from the DIES, the council talked about really um bolstering up our enforcement efforts for 2026.

So we're gonna be working really closely with development services, and they'll have a dedicated code officer to help us with filing more cases, doing more inspections.

So when I come back to you next year, we expect to see a very, very high number of uh cases being filed.

Um you'll see a lot of failure to register cases increase.

We have found this last year, we increased the number of failure to register violations filed, and with that, we increased our contact rate with owners 40%.

So you might be wondering, okay, that's good, but why is that significant?

So when we first identify a structure, the only information I have is what's on BCAD.

So all I have is a name and an address.

We send them notices, they may or may not respond.

You know, they may be like, okay, I'm not worried about that.

But when they get a notice to appear in court for failure to register, they call us.

And when they call us, great.

That that right there allows us to really begin to work with that owner and and work closer towards compliance.

Since the program was established in 2015, we've had 1,100 properties that have either uh been repaired, occupied, or sold to a new owner.

Are there any questions I can answer for anyone?

If uh you had indicated that you get involved early with code compliance, which means that fortunately, thank you very much for getting involved before it gets to us.

Uh that means that we do not have to deal with an individual case.

And also thank you very much for getting the school area involved because that's one of especially Fred's biggest concerns.

In fact, many of the board members' concerns about what's the status of the kids around the schools.

So personally that you've included that in the group.

So any questions?

I have one.

Go ahead.

When you're and let me use your mic.

When you and your uh are are with the board, where is that defined line?

Because we see houses that we order repairs.

It probably sh could have been in that program.

Where is that fine line?

Where it stays with the board or it goes to you?

What makes that fine line?

So if you all are seeing it on your agenda, we have made our efforts.

We work really closely with DSD through the DP identification, the DP process leading up to your agendas.

And so we have tried our six months enforced enforcement efforts with that owner, and they have not complied.

Either have not responded to us or went ahead and paid the $500 fine and still chose to do nothing or didn't have the ability to do anything.

So by the time you've seen them, we've already worked our efforts out.

And that's part of the collaboration with the DSD team.

Now is that in addition to what DSD does?

Are you working another part of the are you working a separate case and running a different track before DS are DSD running simultaneous?

Some of it is simultaneous.

I often describe us as being that middle enforcement effort.

When you look at the span uh for the city, you have your property maintenance codes, then you have the DP BSB process.

We're kind of there in the middle.

And we we hope to get engaged early enough where we can get that owner to make some repairs so that it doesn't end up on an agenda for you all.

Um but to answer your question, typically we're in the middle, or we could be working together.

If there's some items that need to be abated immediately and the owner's not working fast enough, like securing it, cleaning the yard, things of that nature, then BSB will be doing those items around the same time we're doing our notification and enforcement efforts for vacant buildings.

Thank you.

Mr.

Anders, this is this is legal.

I do want to.

Since Ms.

Addison is brand new and I just did the training, uh, if you'll allow me, this is what we uh mean when I was saying we're at the caboose when development services is and um along with OHP has been trying to get some work done, trying to get some movement on this property.

They haven't been getting any BSB is the last resort.

Is it's the caboose because all the other all those other uh train parts, those carts have already passed by and they would they haven't been able to get some assistance.

Thank you, Councilman.

Joel, go ahead.

As is Joel says I was gonna ask them.

Regarding registering vacant houses, is that done on BSB website, or is that done through 311 SA on the app?

How is that actually done?

So to register a vacant building pro uh property, you would go to our website and there's an online form that an owner can fill out, and then we maintain that inventory in that list.

So it's through the Office of Historic Preservation.

And if you want to report it, you can do it through 311, or you could do it directly on our website, or we also have a generic inbox like an email inbox and a phone line that's a customer service line that you can also report properties that way.

And the other question was once you do register the property, there is an annual fee to keep it in in the database, and I take it you send out letters out to the owners to let them know that it's time to pay your fee again.

Yes, thank you for for asking that question because it is what we call annual notice season.

So we are in the process of sending annual notice to those properties that are already in our program and they're going into their subsequent year.

We are sending them notices to let them know that it's time to register, and our team is going to be out in the field doing inspections for the next two months.

Um I will also mention that we're notifying everyone that the fee has increased.

So with the adoption of the FY 2026 budget, there's been a slight increase to registration fees for both residential and non-residential properties.

So we're sending postcards to everyone so that they're aware of that.

Let me ask you a follow-up on that.

When it's registered, the only way they can do it is by computer?

No, no, they can also come in and meet with us and fill out a form, or we'll bring a form to them.

That's as gonna say if they're handicapped or something like that, elderly.

Yes, sir.

Then the form is made available in all in different languages as well.

Uh yes, of course.

If there's a request for a particular uh in um interpretation or a uh what's the word I'm looking for?

Um translation, we'll definitely take care of that for that property owner.

And that's part of the reasons why we have case managers.

Um, you know, they don't wear uniforms, they look just like I do, and we're there to support owners.

So we have several that we've gone out and actually gone to the home to help them register.

Um and and anything we can do to assist them, we're we're open to that.

Thank you.

Go ahead.

I was gonna ask, once we've identified a property and it's in your database, are there any signages on that property saying that that's so?

So there's no demarcating that property, there's no particular sign.

Um it is listed on an inventory sheet that you can find on our website.

We also have an interactive map.

So on our website, you can enter an address and it will tell you whether that property is in our program area, first of all.

And if we have an active case, is it active in our inventory?

Uh the website will tell you that.

Um we are also working on a um a new map and a new dashboard that will link together more information about a building.

So if you see a vacant building, um, and let's say you're looking to redevelop some property, you could put in the address and it will pull up any information we have in our office.

It will pull uh Bear County basic information, square footage, um, the zoning for that property.

If it is an active case in our in our program, it'll let you know that.

And it'll just give you some basic information about where we are in our enforcement.

Uh not a lot of detail, but uh it will also include the case manager's name so that you can contact a member of our team and they can give you some more information.

Just brought it up.

Is there a tie-in to that as well so that if you go into bad and look for a property that'll notify you that it is part of this program?

Did you say bad?

Yeah.

What is it?

Oh, uh BCAD.

So BCAD um they don't have anything on their property detail that says that they are.

They will note if a property is vacant or if it's a vacant lot, they'll they'll have that.

That's just part of their own identification information.

Uh but the best way to find out is to just contact our office and we can we can confirm.

And you have questions.

Yeah, just uh um if nobody complains about the property, are there still people patrolling and then uh presenting that to you?

Yes, ma'am.

Yes, ma'am.

So we have a uh a specialist position that is almost a hundred percent in the field.

And one of his responsibilities is to what we call survey, basically lay eyes into all our program areas to identify potential vacant buildings.

So even if a property, a neighbor doesn't report it or there's not a complaint, um, we can identify them as well uh when we do our survey efforts.

Any other questions?

Kayla.

Is there a reason um that you don't work with the post office to see which properties are vacant?

Like every letter letter carrier in the city, my dad was a letter carrier, they know what buildings are vacant and what are not.

And we do, we do, thank you.

So we do collect um the uh postal service information.

We do it on a uh uh a quarterly period um to go ahead and update that.

Um but yes, ma'am, yes, we do.

Thanks.

Thank you.

And one last shot.

There are none.

Thank you very much.

Thank you for your time.

Indeed, you are one of the folks who indeed here to help.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Appreciate it.

Uh the next presentation, according to my agenda, shows historic design and review.

Very good.

Okay, hi.

Edward, how are you doing?

Good morning.

My name's Edward Hall.

I'm the design review manager from the Office of Historic Preservation.

Um, Kathy.

Uh we office up here at City Tower on the 17th floor, and so if any of y'all ever need to reach out, or if you have any questions, uh there's usually always a member of staff able to talk to you.

Um I have uh 34 slides in here, um, and I don't think I need to elaborate on each one, so I ought to go through this quickly.

Also, I don't really know if my voice will make it through if I talk for at least a minute on each one.

Uh so uh I'm gonna uh just uh let me there we go.

I'm gonna flip through here uh some general information.

Um there's been a historic preservation program uh here at the city of San Antonio since the late 60s or early 70s, I believe.

Uh but our office has been a standalone office since 2008.

Uh that's when our director, Shannon Miller, who's the historic preservation officer started here.

Um we're actually one of the larger offices uh across the country.

Most places have one or two individuals that are in the planning office or the zoning office that handle their preserv historic preservation.

Uh but I'll say that our name's a little bit misleading.

I'll get to that later because we cover a lot more than historic properties.

Um we cover the state of Texas, uh certified local governments, uh, multiple cities, uh, Dallas, Houston, uh, Austin, Fort Worth, they have preservation programs.

Uh ours is so large here that we account for roughly one-third of all the preservation reviews that occur throughout the state of Texas.

Uh, this is just a little bit of an overview.

Uh you can see me down here.

I'm Edward Hall, and I manage the uh individuals in our office that for the most part review certificate of appropriateness applications.

Uh, regulatory reviews, uh, the unified development code gives us direction on how we are to uh receive an application, how we're to perform a completeness review, how we're to process that application.

Uh we also have an archaeologist in our office that administers the uh the Texas Antiquities Code, uh also performs Section 106 review, which is a review that the federal government administers or or uh requires.

Uh and then we serve as a consultant on a lot of bond projects, public hearings.

Um we review public property and impacts the public property, whether that's uh something at Brackenridge Park, whether that's something downtown that's public property, or just a park that may be in your neighborhood.

Uh if there's work going on there, uh the Unified Development Code has it in place that they want somebody putting eyes on it at the city from a design standpoint to make sure that uh what the city's spending money on, what the taxpayers are spending money on is going to be quality.

And so that's the review that we perform.

It doesn't go very deep, but it's somebody looking at it to make sure that general items are being accounted for.

Um our purview, so we have 32 local historic districts.

There are a handful that are downtown.

Uh obviously, y'all know the residential ones, Monta Vista, King William, Monticello Park, Lavaca, Dignity Hill, Government Hill.

Uh, there are a handful of other smaller ones, Knob Hill, some that are only 15 or 20, maybe 30 properties.

Um, we perform roughly 2200 reviews annually.

Um, the majority of those are administrative.

Um in past years, and I'll pull up the the I'll pull up the chart here in a little bit.

In past years, we've had uh HDRC agendas that are a lot busier.

I've reviewed 500 to 600 cases.

I think this year we're probably on on pace for about half of that.

So we've slowed down a little bit, uh, but we have zoning overlays that we also reviewed.

The river improvement overlay, if you all can think of Broadway Corridor, uh starting it, Hildebrand all the way to downtown, the things that are along Broadway Pearl, uh, and then what's what's closer to downtown along Broadway.

And then if you can think of roughly 1,000 feet on either side of the river, starting here at Chavez all the way to 410 South.

Uh, that's the river improvement overlay.

Uh the main things that the river improvement overlay are looking for, they're looking for quality design uh that's pedestrian-oriented.

Uh so think Broadway corridor, and that's the general intent of the river improvement overlay.

The downtown design guide, most of downtown is also in the river improvement overlay.

This is what you can think of of multifamily new construction, mixed use, high-rise residential, high-rise hotel, whatever it may be.

Uh, and then we have our historic design guidelines.

So you can see that between river improvement overlay, downtown design guide, historic districts, and public property, we have a lot that we review.

We also review uh communications installations, so uh the network nodes that make your cell phone work.

Uh, whenever ever those are within a historic district or downtown or public property, we review that.

Uh so we have uh we we do a lot.

Uh we have a lot of of things that we cover, and um it's uh it really keeps us busy and it's fun.

Uh so um if you can look up here to the map, uh if you see a little gold box around a general area, those are historic districts.

And then if you see the hatch pattern that's blue, those are river improvement overlay districts.

You see something in red, that's an individually listed landmark.

A lot of individually listed landmarks are also within historic districts.

Uh this is just a chart showing our general review of applications, uh, administrative uh public hearing cases.

So that would be the historic and design review commission or our compliance and technical advisory board.

Uh so you can you can see the amount that we process.

Uh we're we're pretty busy.

Um we have uh a fast pace.

Um a lot of us have uh design backgrounds, and so if any of you do, you know that in design school, you you start to learn engineering school, architecture school, whatever that may be, that time management is key, and we are we're constantly reviewing.

We we are I I think we're efficient at it.

Some people may not, but I do I think we are.

Uh so we have an explorer map on our website.

Uh so anyone can go online, any little blue dot you see here, and this is just a snippet.

This is, I mean, you can literally see this is downtown and Dignity Hill and parts of King William and Labaca.

This doesn't account for Monticello Park or Mona Vista.

This doesn't account for things north of downtown.

Every blue dot's an application that we've reviewed.

Uh so you can go online and click on one of these parcels or a blue dot, and it'll pull up all the property information, or at least back to 2014.

This is when we we slowly started bringing all of this online.

Uh so as you can see, we're busy.

Um we are and I'll get to this a little bit later, so let me not jump ahead.

Um our philosophy is we try to be approachable, accessible, affordable, uh timely, and uh our goal is to find a solution for an applicant that's within what the unified development coding guidelines say that where we can get them approved as soon as possible.

Uh if you submit an application for roof replacement, if that roof replacement is something that the unified development code and guidelines say is appropriate, we're gonna try our best to have that to you within one day.

Sometimes we can turn it around in two or three hours, depending on how many applications we're getting.

Uh, if somebody does need to go to our historic and design review commission, we'll actually pull that individual to the side.

We'll set up a phone call or a Teams or WebEx meeting with them, and we'll say, hey, what you're proposing, we cannot recommend it, or if we can, the commission has to approve it.

But if you tweak these three or four things, we can get it to a point to where it is within guidelines in the code and we can process it administratively.

Um so um our the amount of items that we've had on agendas has decreased in the past couple of years, and I generally think that's due to a few things.

I think it's due to uh the most recent uh UDC update that has expanded what we can approve administratively.

Uh I think that's uh a little bit to account to us being able to have more flexibility with the applicants.

Um but it also it it I think it accounts to our customer service and trying to set an expectation with an applicant as soon as possible, but also education, being able to provide applicants with the guidelines that they need and then policy documents, which I'll talk about a little bit later.

Umified development code.

We're all familiar with this, and so I don't need to go too deep into this.

The certificate of appropriateness process generally follows the same general structure as a permit.

Um it's good for 180 days.

If somebody comes to us on the 181st day, or if it's two years later and says nothing's changed, I've got my money together now, or I've got the time, we're gonna reissue that so that they don't have to go through that process again.

Uh we don't review interior spaces of private property uh or public property for that matter.

The the only interior space that we review are public meeting spaces.

So like the interior of council chambers or or city hall may require review or our atmospheric theater, so the lobby of the majestic or Aztec.

Um minor and temporary items usually don't require a COA.

Um there's there's a handful of things.

If you if you take a look at the unified development code, it gives you a list of you need a COA for this, you don't need one for this.

Uh let me keep going.

Um so I've covered this a little bit.

We we'll make sure that an applicant's complication is complete.

We'll make sure that we have the documents that we need.

If it needs to go to a public hearing, we schedule that as soon as possible and pretty efficiently.

An applicant will know usually within a couple of days uh if they do need to go to a hearing.

Um if it's eligible for administrative approval, we can let the applicant know that ASAP.

Uh and in some cases, if you submit an application at at noon here on Friday, um, depending on what our load is, it we may not get to it until Monday, but then on Monday we'll say, hey, this is eligible for admin, we're working on it to give somebody an idea so that they're not waiting multiple days.

Um I've already covered this a little bit, completeness review, we've already talked about that.

Documentation, for the most part, it's gonna be what's required for a permit.

Um the unified development code requires us to have two-scale construction documents.

Um we understand that um there are some people that are trying to do some things to their house that don't have the ability or maybe the time in some cases to go hire an architect or a designer.

Uh, and so uh we're able to work with the applicants.

Um we also, as staff, like I said, a lot of us have design backgrounds.

Uh, and so we're able to, we're not necessarily going to design something for someone, but we're able to work with them and try to uh capture an approval language what they're doing to where anybody can go and pick that certificate of appropriateness up and read it and generally get a good idea based on what they've explained to us and what we've approved uh that may be able to stand alone from construction documents if they're not able to provide that.

Uh but in some cases, um we we do need construction documents, especially for new construction or an addition.

Um and so uh to the left here is just an example of of a drawing that an applicant brought in.

Um and in a lot of cases, um, you know, we're able to see dimensions here, but it's also something where we start to ask questions of how is this going to tie into the existing structure, how is it going to drain?

Uh, is the structure adequate for the load that it needs to carry?

Uh, and so a lot of people, you know, say, okay, I I hear you.

And then may come back two days later or two months later and say, hey, I've got this.

I was able to work with my contractor, I was able to work with whoever.

Um, we try to explain to people that this is not us trying to be nitpicky or be a burden or require you to do something that's cumbersome.

Um I usually like to explain it to people of if you worked with me and then I'm not working here in two months and you've done work, and somebody else comes out and they say, Hey, I don't think you did that correctly.

Then the the construction documents that you submitted and approved are the official record, and that's what needs to be that's what needs to be referred to.

So this is a good example, and and I would say that for the most part, what we receive are documents that we can work with.

It's not common that we we mark an application incomplete because there's not sufficient information.

Uh most people uh know that when they want to do something, they need to have something to go by, and so usually we'll get documents that we can we can proceed forward with and determine the application to be complete.

Um we've already touched base on this a little bit.

Um we offer a conceptual review for larger projects, new construction.

Uh we usually say that this is a chance for an applicant to uh determine whether or not the commission would approve their request before they become emotionally and financially attached to it.

Uh most larger new construction and even single family new construction, most of the time the architect and the property owner will elect to go through a conceptual approval.

Uh that way they can say, hey, this is something that that staff finds to be appropriate with the code or the guidelines.

This is something that the commission finds to be appropriate.

Let's move forward with it.

Uh administrative approval, we've already covered this.

Um it's not a not a shortcut.

The applications have to be complete, they have to have the documents required by the code.

Uh, but the code uh code takes the understanding that staff is going to be professional and we're going to review it in an adequate manner uh and process the COA that way.

And that's the majority of the COAs that we process are administrative.

Uh here we go.

This is what we try to stick by uh is 24 hours for um our administrative reviews and then HDRC review.

Uh we actually have a deadline tomorrow that is for the hearing on November the 5th.

And so you submit your application tomorrow by next Monday or Tuesday.

Uh it's been a sign I'll assign it to somebody, I'll review it.

Um we're working on findings of fact and recommendations.

Uh we'll have that application reviewed by the following Tuesday or Wednesday.

You'll have an update a full week before your hearing uh so that you can prepare, uh, address any staff's comments, whatever.

Um, our goal is to work to get that on the consent agenda so that you don't even need to present it to the commission.

Uh this is uh more or less uh pretty straightforward.

Um you submit your COA, we perform a completeness review, we either approve it administratively or refer it to the commission.

Once you get your COA, uh we also review the permit to make sure what you've submitted to permitting and development services is consistent with what the commission approved.

Um, and then if we need to review any revisions, we'll do that in accordance with uh DSD's process.

Sorry, let me.

This is just a copy of our certificate of appropriateness.

Uh, each applicant gets a digital copy.

Um, and then you'll see many of them will have that displayed.

Uh these are also all available for the public.

So if your neighbor's doing work or not, you know, and you say, I don't know if you got approval for that, or that doesn't look like something that OHP would approve.

You can just search their address and go see whether or not they have one.

Uh customer service, like I said, we we we try to be um as available as we need to.

Um before COVID, we were able to bring everything that we have online.

Uh so our applications completely online.

Uh we can set up virtual meetings, and for the most part, that's what a lot of people like.

Um, there's some people that like to meet in person, but most folks will say, like, hey, I've got 30-minute break at work.

Um, you know, I need to talk to somebody at staff, and we'll say, sure, here's a video link.

Um during COVID, this was super helpful because we were able to work remotely or wherever we needed to work and did not miss a beat.

We were still moving forward.

Um, but yeah, we we try to be as available to to individuals as need be.

Um I try to often encourage uh my team and I do it myself to um set up a meeting with an applicant to get a good understanding of what they want to do, but then also set an expectation of what the unified development code and guidelines require.

That way somebody's not thinking for three or four weeks that, oh, I don't need to do this, and then they submit an application, and we say, no, no, no, that's that's not consistent.

Um we often find that that typically leads to a more efficient review process and approval process for uh for that applicant.

Um public participation, we've mentioned this.

Uh you can see all of our documents online.

Um we allow the public to in-person and remotely participate in all of our hearings.

That's two HDRC hearings a month and one compliance and technical advisory board hearing a month.

Uh we also have uh trainings that we have, um multiple trainings uh, and then uh the historic districts coalition.

This is generally made up of individuals from neighborhood associations, uh they meet and they will uh give recommendations and suggestions to OHP staff of how we could uh better serve uh individuals that own properties in historic districts, how we can be more available, how we can provide more educational information.

Um we've already touched base on this.

Our HDRC primarily reviews new constructions, additions, uh significant alterations.

We offer a tax incentive, the commission approved reviews and approves those, as well as uh designations.

Uh our compliance and technical advisory board, they meet once a month.

So the HDRC is first and third Wednesday of each month.

The CTAB is the last Friday of each month, uh, so they'll meet tomorrow morning.

Um they're looking at specific items that are impacts to historic fabric on historic structures.

So window replacement, um roofing changes, uh siding and skirting modifications.

And I know you're thinking, oh, well, that seems like it would be a lot.

Um CTAB meets once a month, and we average about five applications per agenda.

Uh so the majority of applications review, um, individuals know well in advance what they need to do with the guidelines say, and by the time we receive an application, um, it's usually at a point to where we can approve it administratively.

Um, for the most part, the CTAB agendas, not all the times, but a decent amount of times, they are actually violation cases.

Um, and so um work that's been done without a certificate of appropriateness or work that's been done that has not been done consistently with what's been approved.

And in those cases, uh we work a lot with Danny and his team, uh code enforcement to ensure that um there's uh kind of a um we're working at the same time as DSD to bring uh property into compliance.

Um CTAB, HDRC, they're um 11 members of each.

They're appointed by 10 council members, and then there's a mayoral appointee.

Um we provide an annual training for them.

Um and um, yeah, I think that's probably all I need to say on that.

Uh agendas and public hearings, uh, you all are familiar with this.

Um we make these available to the public as soon as possible uh and answer questions that we receive from the public about agendas.

Uh subcommittees, there is a subcommittee for the HDRC, and so um you look at it as a work session.

Uh we will at times refer an application to the HDRC's work session.

So uh Mr.

Nelson, let's say that you um you're wanting to build a garage, and you submit that and you say, well, hey, you know, it'd be nice if I had an office upstairs above the garage.

Uh and so we'd say, okay, well, you want it to be 28 feet tall, super tall, uh, but your house is only 18 feet tall.

Uh and then you say, you know, you want it to, it's not going to be consistent with the guidelines.

We'll say, hey, we understand what you're saying, and you understand what we're saying, but why don't you go meet with the subcommittee before you go to the full commission to see what they say?

Subcommittee is made up of actual commissioners.

Uh, so you can get feedback before you come before the full commission and you're in in a room full of people and get general feedback, and uh we find that to be helpful.

At other times, the commission will refer an application to the subcommittee and say, like, hey, we're almost there, but there are some things that aren't consistent with the UDC and guidelines.

Can we meet in the subcommittee next week and work those out?

Uh so if somebody goes to HDRC, you know, on the first Wednesday of the month, they would be at the subcommittee on the second Tuesday of the month and back at HDRC on the third Wednesday.

Uh so they would have three three weeks in a row to where they could probably get it get something approved.

Um our guidelines, they were adopted in 2012.

They're based on the Secretary of the Interior standards.

Um, they allow for interpretation and flexibility, but what we've done is we've looked in between the lines of those guidelines and we've drafted and had approved policy documents.

Um so the guidelines may say if you're going to replace or repair siding, replace it in kind.

Um but the policy document looks a little bit deeper into that and says, in this situation, do this, in that situation, do that.

And developing those for we've developed them for porch reconstruction, for roofing, for foundation and skirting, for landscaping, for window repair, window replacement, for substitute materials.

Those have also shortened the amount of HDRC items we have because applicants are able to get more instruction and more recommendation from those.

We have one for fences as well.

They can open up that policy document and go right there and say, Oh, like you're giving me five or six options now.

Yeah, I can figure out one of these and I'll come back to you.

In a lot of cases, we'll have details in those documents that somebody can basically submit their application and sign and say, I'm going to use this detail.

Denial of a COA, there we really don't have that many COAs get denied.

And if somebody submits something that we say, hey, there's no way that this is not consistent with the UDC or guidelines, and we don't believe the commission is going to approve it.

A lot of cases an applicant will say, Okay, I hear you.

I'll I'll I'll figure something else out.

Uh in the event that an application is denied, uh, an applicant has the ability to appeal that to the zoning board of adjustment.

Uh we may have two or three each year.

There are not a lot.

We don't have that many denials either.

The commission does not like to deny an application.

Um just like staff, the commission wants to work with someone to find a solution to what their request is.

Uh and then demolition of a landmark.

We also don't have that many requests for demolitions of of historic structures.

Um the unified development code, um, the process for demolition is actually written in a sense that uh it makes it nearly impossible to receive approval of the demolition of a single family historic structure, uh, mainly because it makes you provide a burden of proof and part of that burden of proof is an economic hardship says I haven't been able to sell the market or sell the property for two years.

Uh well that off the bat prevents somebody from buying a house solely to demolish it if it's sown to store it, because if you bought it, you just prove that it could be marketed and sold.

Uh and then the UDC requires that you can't prove a reasonable rate of return, but the UDC doesn't quantify what a reasonable rate of return is.

Uh so a reasonable rate of return for somebody may be 40,000, but for the commission, it could be a thousand.

Uh so it you can see where uh proving an economic hardship is pretty tough.

We we maybe receive two or three inquiries a year.

It says, hey, I'm looking at this property and I wanted to demolish it, and once we explain it, they say, Oh, never mind.

And then six months later, somebody buys it, and before you know it, it's being rehabbed.

Um then uh here's just a good example.

Uh, this is kind of one of those situations where um there's a property that's been vacant, vacant building program notifies the applicant, the applicant says, Oh, well, I I'm not I can't do anything with that, and or they figure out a solution where they can, or it's marketed and sold, and then somebody's able to buy that and and rehabilitate it and and bring back housing uh to an area that that's probably been void of housing at least on that lot for 10 or 15 or 20 years.

So uh that's all that I have.

I talked probably a little longer than I intended to, but um I don't know if y'all have any questions for me, but if so, I can try to answer those now.

Thank you for the presentation.

Way beyond what I thought at least.

Uh questions.

Um I I just are you gonna be here after our meeting is over?

Are you gonna be leaving?

Uh I hadn't planned to be here.

I'd plan to go back to the office.

How do you decide that a building is historic or a home is historic?

Yes, ma'am.

So um there's a we have a team in our office, it's called our Scout SA team, uh, and there are criteria set within the unified development code.

So there's 13 criteria to where if an applicant comes to us and says, I want to designate my property as historic, we review the property based on those criteria.

So architecturally, what's what's there architecturally?

Um was it designed or built by a famous architect?

Did something historic or significant happen here from a design standpoint or a cultural standpoint, so on and so forth.

So there's 13 criteria that we identify that by.

For the properties that that um, let's see if I can.

Yeah, here we go.

So for all the things that are in gold and red up here, um, many of those were designated um 70s, 80s, 90s, early 2000s.

Um we may receive, we may have, I don't know, maybe five or six landmarks that the commission will approve a year.

Um the more majority of those are individuals where the the properties where the applicant, the owner will come to us and say, I've got this architecturally unique property.

Um I want it to be become a historic landmark, and so that's how that that's determined.

I don't want to be too specific, but I live on West Ashby close to the railroad tracks.

There are all these shotgun houses.

I can't believe these people went to you.

I know they didn't.

And they're still just sitting there designated as historic with nothing really happening to them.

Is there a recourse there?

There is.

And so if there's so there are a couple of things.

If they're vacant and that they're not up to the standard of care, then the vacant building program would address it.

Also manage our prevention of demolition by neglect.

And so when there are properties that are vacant, and that person is saying, whatever, I'm not I'm not gonna wait, you know, I'm not registering this property as vacant.

Uh they usually have a ton of violations from DSD as far as property maintenance go.

We'll follow a prevention of demolition by neglect case on them.

Uh and basically that'll start to get some traction going.

A lot of people will get that, and then right off the bat they'll say, Oh, um, you know, I don't want to pay fines, and I don't want to, you know, a lot of people will go and they'll maybe plead guilty to that at court, but you still haven't addressed the violation, so we'll just file another case until you actually bring this up to up to code.

And so um you mentioned Ashby, I can get the addresses from you and um I I I can you told me where I can I I remember what what you said, so may I add something?

May I SUA If I could just add a point of clarification?

So uh being designated historic means a zoning overlay.

So it's been zoned as a historic property.

Um there are structures you'll see in town, they look old, they look historic.

So historic with a capital H means it's been zoned and designated.

Historic meaning without the capital H means it just looks old.

I know exactly which properties you're talking about.

But the policies that uh Edward was describing, like prevention of demolition by neglect and the uh requests for demolition are for those properties that are zoned historic.

Um so that's a distinction to make, and you can find out if a property is zoned historic on the explorer map that Edward mentioned.

Yes.

Any digital questions?

I got go ahead.

Oh, go ahead, Robert.

We have a full board meeting for historical houses that need to be looked at by this board.

What gets it from you area into this board for us to look at that?

Uh so I may need some help answering this.

So um the properties that are zoned historic, um, when those do come before the the BSB, it's because we have not been able to get traction from a property owner to repair.

And so it'll come, it'll go to our compliance and technical advisory board for recommendation to you all to basically tell that property owner to repair.

It's just one of the things that as we're moving forward, if we do submit a municipal court case for prevention of demolition by neglect, it's something else that uh we can have in the record um and say BSB's provided a recommendation for repair.

So typically it's in coordination with code enforcement uh to add to that.

No, that wouldn't and that wouldn't come from the BSB, it would actually come from you referral only for a repair, not a demo.

So um I can I can add a little bit more color to that description.

So if it's a dangerous premise case and it is zoned historic, then my team will review that.

Um if it's vacant, which they almost always are, then we will take our our stab at some enforcement efforts through the vacant building program will take about six months to do that.

Um we have a tier system for the vacant building program.

If it's DP and it's zoned historic, then it's at top of our list for failure to register or other uh court cases.

So we're doing all of that.

So we are taking them to court, we are trying to work with them on um uh standard of care.

I think you may recognize a lot of times it's because there's no clear owner or there is no owner.

So then Edward's team would probably take that case to the HGRC, and the HTRC would make a recommendation to you all for repair.

Typically that's what the the order is going to be, and then that's when you see it on your agenda.

So the short answer is we've worked with development services on code enforcement, we've worked on the vacant building ordinance, and there's been no improvement, we haven't been able to effect change.

Um so with the HDRC's recommendation, you will see that on your agenda.

So you would present the case, not uh DSD.

There aren't many that come to you, but when they do come, it's the DSD staff that usually presents.

And we'll we'll make ourselves available for those cases also if you should have questions that are outside of the DP process.

We've had what?

Not too many.

They came before us before.

Yeah.

And that's why.

Because the process is normally we can't do anything unless it's a full board meeting.

But I wanted to see the procedures before it gets to us, so they can't say, well, we didn't have sure, sure.

Thank you.

Yeah, Eric was right, the caboose.

You know, we um I I used to sit on the BSB before I was a city employee, and I remember always assuming that if there's a property on our agenda, the city staff has done all they could, that this was the last resort.

Uh so we work really hard in our office, especially the vacant building team to make sure that that is the case, that we've done all we could before you see it on your agenda.

Oh, my question is uh demolition by neglect also.

Uh I've been involved with the conservation society for over 50 years.

Uh when there is an obvious building, a developer wants torn down, and he's letting it uh it uh deteriorate, which we call demolition by neglect on purpose, because he wants to get rid of that property.

Uh how do y'all handle that?

Uh so there's a a direct uh there are criteria that the unified development code says if you identify these things, then this is the point for you to cite that individual for these things.

Um I think generally from the get go, our first you know, first kind of step in that process is the vacant building program, uh, because that's going to require an applicant to have to maintain the standard of care for that property.

If that app or that property owner is ignoring that, um, and especially when it gets to the point of it's becoming uh a safety issue for the public, people are trespassing in and out, uh parts of the structure have started to collapse, whether that be the porch, um windows are removed and the elements are coming in.

That's typically when we'll ramp up on the prevention of demolition by neglect.

Um if there's a specific property, um then we can take a look at that.

Um, because sometimes it is a city property.

Thank you.

Okay, any other questions.

Uh thank you very much.

Go ahead.

Sorry.

Most of the properties that come to this board are are not in historic districts or not designated historic, but when you look through the timeline as they're brought to us, sometimes it seems like it takes a long time from the when the code enforcement officer has notified you then to get a response back whether or not it's historic or not.

So what should our expectations be with regard to how long it takes you to determine whether a property is historic or not historic.

Oh well, Kathy answer that one.

Thank you.

Uh and and I'm only answering because my team is uh we we do the intake for the uh notices for dangerous premises and we work with the DSD team leading up to your review.

Um so the answer is so when when develop the the short answer is when development services officially notifies us with what they call an HPO notification, we technically have 30 days to respond to them, whether we think that it's potentially uh eligible to be designated.

Um we try hard to get those back in the 30 days, and we have a team that does a little bit of research on that.

Um what often happens is it's vacant and it's in the program area.

If it's vacant and it's in my program area, then we work with D DSD to pause for six months so that we can take those enforcement actions and that outline that I showed you earlier.

Um then after that, if we're not making any progress, we'll hand it back to DSD to move forward to you all.

If there's an owner, so the the ones that you mentioned that have a long timeline, it seems like they've been lingering for a while.

Often that's because there is somebody that we've been trying to work with.

Um what I've told my team is if we have a uh a property on our inventory and there's an owner that's communicating with us, we are going to we are going to keep working with them, getting them to, you know, pushing them to pull a permit, make some repairs, or list that property, sell that property.

We're gonna be a little bit more aggressive.

And that's part of what our tier system is is to identify those.

So if it's kind of slow getting here, it could be a couple of things.

It could be that we haven't been able to find anybody to take to court, um, or there is somebody who's paying the taxes, they're making some repairs, they may be slow at it, but we're giving them this opportunity to make some progress.

Um and then if it just they just can't, and it the building continues to deteriorate, then we'll we'll let it go through the process and you'll see it on your agenda.

At least that's that's the explanation for my portion of the review for any cases that look like they may have been lingering.

The DSD team may have some other insights too on on why some of them take a little longer to progress.

And and the properties that you identify, it's because they are all within a historic overlay district.

They are within the vacant building program, program area, which extends beyond historic districts.

That's actually um conservation districts, half-mile buffers outside of those districts, uh tax increment revitalization zones, uh thousand foot buffer around schools anywhere in the city, so it's not necessarily property zoned historic, but it's properties within the vacant building program area.

Thank you.

Yes, sir.

And one last chance.

Let me ask you this.

We've had uh a couple of them that range 1920 and up, but they did not fit historical.

What is decry- I thought age was part of the criteria and the architectural features of it.

It is, but uh as Kathy mentioned earlier, there actually has to be a zoning overlay for a structure to be considered historic for it to fall under our purview per the unified development code.

So while something may be of the age, I mean when you look at it, there's a very small percentage of the structures residential in San Antonio that are designated historic that would be eligible.

I mean, you could have we we have purview over roughly 10,000 properties, you could multiply that by 10 and probably get there.

But it would have to be an official zoning overlay, something that the HDRC, the zoning commission, and then council have all have all said yes to.