Policy committee to order.

Roll call, please.

Council President Acre.

Here.

Councilmember Bowie.

Councilmember Jost.

Here.

Councilmember Coleman.

Here.

Councilmember Kim.

Councilmember Yang.

Here.

Councilmember Johnson.

Four present.

Three absent.

All are excused.

All right.

Welcome everyone.

Good morning.

Um it is a bright, sunny, I think, Wednesday, and we have two items on our policy committee agenda today.

Um, so I will turn things over for our first agenda item, which is our legislative agenda review to uh Mr.

Heinfeld.

Welcome.

Thank you, Council President, and members of the committee.

But circumstances have transpired to kind of make this a necessity before the start of the legislative session on February 17th.

Director General Rourke started on Monday.

So we have that element.

I circulated this morning Jen's additions to that document, and she can speak to what those are in substance and also take you know comment and feedback from you as council members about the priorities.

And I think in my email last night to council members, I provided a few discussion questions to kind of kick start a framing and direction for this work.

The idea is to identify any priorities that need further refinement for the presentation before council next week.

So we are cognizant of any suggestions have to be, you know, actually incorporated into a document that we then adopt.

But that's kind of the purpose of this work session is to identify any priorities that require additional clarity, what items may be time sensitive given the political realities of the situation.

So there is kind of that political alignment consideration, I think, within our priorities that is a possibility to explore here.

And then finally, what are some gaps or emerging issues that could be considered for inclusion?

I think we all know what environment we find ourselves in, and the priorities document may need to be added to to reflect that current reality.

I'll leave it there.

Great.

All right.

And so I'd like to introduce uh director general work.

Welcome, Director.

We are thrilled to have you both here at our policy committee and also here in general on the third floor.

Thank you.

Welcome.

Thank you.

Uh Council President Naker, members of the committee and council members.

Uh it's great to be with you today.

This is day three of uh my time with the mayor's office.

So um it's been good so far, and I'm happy to be here with you in this workshop session uh prior to hopefully next week's vote at the full council meeting.

So um Tim did a nice job laying it out.

You have uh this document that was part of your packet, I think earlier in the month when Nick uh Stumo Langer presented, and I've made a few changes uh based on conversations that happened with your office and a few other things.

Um I'm happy to present this any way you want in the time that we have today.

Um thanks so much, Director.

One one question that I had just to make sure we're all clear in part because um our feedback over time has generally been please get this document down to fewer pages, and that feedback was heard and uh and responded to in this, which is really exciting.

But as a result, I I just wanted to make sure I'm clear.

Is this everything?

So, like this everything that's listed here is everything that is in our legislative agenda.

It's not it's not a summary, and then there's a much longer document somewhere else that has all the stuff.

Council president, that's correct.

Uh just a few words on that.

I think the previous document that we had looked at that maybe you voted on last year was in the neighborhood of 25 to 29 pages.

Uh, just for everyone's knowledge, I came uh straight from being the county's government relations director.

So I worked a lot with the previous folks in the mayor's office with the city.

Um I think um uh the assistant mayors who are working on this did a good job of getting it from 29 pages down to I think the five you have in front of us.

Uh working with others and whatnot, I would envision we would clean this up, do some technical fixes just to make sure everything's in the right uh vernacular and put it on letter head and uh then start working at kind of one pagers for some of the bigger ticket items that we want to be lobbying on, and that would be the legislative platform for the city.

Um, and then one other kind of grounding question.

Um then I want to open it up for I'd look to my colleagues also for how you think it's gonna be most helpful to have this discussion.

Um can you just say a little bit more about the difference between the top priorities and then the additional priorities and then the support items?

What is that gonna mean in terms of how we care about these things, the work we do, um how did we how do we how do we see these as we go forward?

Thank you for that question.

You know, I'll start by saying I think any local governments, we have a lot of work that we do, whether it's cities, counties, whoever, so it makes sense to have uh platform that covers a lot of bases.

And you all know this, but we end up doing a lot of defense work at the Capitol 2 in terms of local governments, uh, which maybe isn't always covered here.

But um, you know, as you look at, say, page one and two, where we call those the top priorities and list out everything from like the arena, some cyber attacks, policy language, uh, and a few other items.

I believe we would be introducing bills on that.

So that's a good way to think about us leading in a space actually having a legislation that we talk to members of our delegation about that gets introduced and gets a hearing and that we push hard on.

The next section that talks about additional City of St.

Paul legislative priorities starting on page three.

Uh, you know, that kicks off with a slew of bonding requests.

A lot of those have been introduced already, and I can get that information for you before in advance of next week.

But um, you know, those are items that the city wouldn't necessarily be leading on.

Uh, a lot of those have other lobbyists, if you will, working on them.

Um the Kellogg Bridge is maybe one is probably one that the city would need to be in the city's um list, and maybe uh that gets moved to the top priorities part.

I haven't had a chance to talk to uh any of you or uh the mayor's office staff about that in depth, but it's one that we identified.

Um I mean the additional legislative priorities are still important um policy things and for the city.

So, but I would envision a lot of those we would not be introducing bills on, if that makes sense.

Okay, great.

Thank you.

Um looking to my colleagues for questions, comments, or you know, suggestions about what would be helpful as we approach this conversation.

For example, do folks want Dr.

Mark to go through these at all?

Um people feel like they already know what they are.

Thank you, Count Council President.

I am okay with just going through the slides, and if I have questions, I'll ask about it.

Okay, and maybe um it looks like there were some new ones added from the last time that we saw this.

I think the additional legislative priorities, legislative items, maybe.

Sure, if it's okay, um, Madam Chair.

The additions were made to this word document.

Okay.

If it's okay, I I'm most familiar with this.

Okay.

I did listen in on the presentation on the 21st, but uh I think we would we would hit everything if we worked through this, if that's okay, uh, Councilmember Yang.

Okay, let's do that.

All right, and maybe you can highlight specifically the additions if you can remember if you know that you made since thank you.

So leading off with the arena complex and surrounding entertainment investments, um, our point person and negotiations on this right now has been assistant mayor uh Nick Stumolanger.

Um we don't have anything that we added to this.

I would point out the eastbound Kellogg Bridge is included in what's supposed to be an inclusive ask from the legislature that covers all of the uh buildings, if you will, in that arena complex.

The social district authorization is also called out in that.

Uh moving on, the adding to natural disaster statutes.

Uh, the mayor's really wants to include cyber attacks in that.

Uh that would enable the city to be reimbursed, I think, on a quicker basis for what happened last summer.

Moving on is uh state reimbursement program for law enforcement.

No changes to that from the last time either, but uh I think you're all familiar with the work and just responsibility that happens in that area.

The next one deals with West Seventh Corridor and some of the transit investments that have been happening there.

I know I was privy to some of those conversations and work and community sessions when I was at the county.

Um this is to cover this just keeps the city at the table in terms of uh what happens at the legislature.

I think the hope is that MINDOT and the state will step up with uh financial assistance in that area.

The next one deals with uh state funding and legislation reimbursing community for costs incurred during the federal immigration surge.

I know that uh on the Democratic side at least, there's a package of bills that legislators are interested in pursuing that I think would align pretty well with the city's values in terms of residents and evictions and um some of the other things that we're experiencing right now with uh the operation metro surge.

So we'll be monitoring that, and I think uh with your leadership and the mayors and others just wanting to be uh part of being vocal and uh showing up in that space.

And then finally, is just the referencing the downtown redevelopment and a few different tools for that with tax increment financing, um, the cub credit, a lot of these things have been um out there before, but we envision that that's will be a priority as well.

Maybe I'll just stop there quick.

Any changes or questions for those five or six items we just walked through.

Any questions or additions?

Ms.

Yang.

Thank you, Council President.

Well, I I really appreciate just the um everything you shared so far.

I was uh actually really interested in a reimbursement program for our law enforcement officers, especially during the operation uh metro search.

So you have it on here, which I think is so great.

Do you have any thoughts on and on what that would look like or what exactly like that package would be and what the reimbursement amount would be for that, and how likely would something like that um pass at the legislature too.

Well, thanks for that question.

I don't right now, I haven't had a chance to really delve into that, but notice just you know some of the press coverage around it, and uh I'm glad our partners are thinking about that.

It's a way the legislature can show up in this space.

Uh I'd be I'll be glad to put a little memo together for that and share it with uh you all in advance of next week.

Yeah, thank you.

Um, and yeah, I I can only imagine like I'm sure our well, our um St.

Paul Police Department is putting in more time really because of the federal immigration activity, and then also our businesses um are deeply hurting right now too because of all of this.

And so um I think well, what I'm understanding from this is that it would be a reimbursement program to would it be to cities that that cover that entire range from like businesses to to our law enforcement officers, or is it more specific on on what the what would be reimbursed?

I don't have the answers to that right now, but I'd be glad to see what's already out there.

You know, there aren't any bills that can be introduced necessarily before session starts.

So February 17th is the first day of session.

I think we'll see a lot of bills introduced and uh that week where we're able to kind of dive in on language, and certainly in advance of that, we've got a really good delegation of members.

I think everyone's swimming in the same lane, and you know, I'm happy to check in with some of them and see if they've got language we can look at in advance.

Great, thank you.

Yeah, I'm personally very supportive of that, and um, if we can have provide support for community organizations too, that would be really important.

Thanks for your comments, Ms.

Yang, and I I agree.

I appreciate the asks for more specificity around any of these.

Um I also think there's there's on the other hand, some nice elements of having this be a little bit more broad because I imagine that this would allow us to get behind a number of different bills that might come forward.

So I I suspect maybe we'll see those bills and those specifics as session starts to your point, Dr.

Rourke.

But um, yes, I had the same question, sort of how much money to whom what are we talking about?

Um Ms.

Coleman.

Thank you.

I just continuing on this of thinking about sort of the second to last item here and what reimbursements might look like for the costs incurred during the recent surge.

I the other thing that is on my mind is I know we've been having this conversation, and that our HRE chair and vice chair have been leading many of these conversations around the flexibility or lack thereof of our existing dollars for economic development.

Um kind of uh the real desire to turn some of our star dollars potentially into something that could be used to immediately alleviate some of the harm facing our small businesses right now, but that there are a number, my understanding and others should correct me if this isn't correct, but my understanding is that there are significant limitations on our ability to be flexible with those dollars, so that many of those are imposed at the state level.

So it also seems to me not an area to add, but just something that we might want to be mindful of during this session is if there are opportunities to think about how can we in a future event like this be more flexible and be able to get dollars out the door more quickly in order to support our small businesses for some of the actual needs they're facing, which is the fact that they can't open and their employees can't get to work.

Um that would be something that I'd be interested in.

And if other cities are leading on that, I think it would be very interesting for us to potentially support some of that work.

Thank you for that.

On a slightly different note, but also on the same page.

I especially like the fact that we've changed conversions of office to housing to conversions of office space to a bunch of different uses because there are many different uses that the conversions could lead to.

And we had, I think, been sort of second or third tier in that coalition.

That effort has not been successful at least two years in a row now, and it's a really important tool to allow for that redevelopment to happen.

So I I have some questions about whether or not we should play a larger role in that work, and I'm I just want to sort of put that on your radar in case you are considering whether or not we should be in a coalition or really taking the lead.

Thank you for that.

And um thank you for that, Council President.

And we'll certainly take that under advisement with this.

It's been an interesting one to work on, even from the county's perspective.

Uh did work with Rethos some.

Uh, and then we've got legislators in different places with that.

Um, you know, it kind of comes down to dollars, even for them.

So at the end of the day, uh a couple years ago, I think when this was first out there, they were also putting more money into LGA and CPA, local government aid and county program aid.

So sometimes those become choices for us as well as policymakers at the Capitol.

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.

And again, I mean, having sort of the flexibility in this to allow the legislature, I mean, for us it's the what, not the how, right?

We need tools to redevelop downtown.

So if the legislature would prefer any of the other things that are listed here over a Cub credit or something that's not listed here, so far we've been zero for zero.

So I think it's or zero for many.

So I think it would be um it would behoove us to be more flexible as to what their answer is, but demand some answer.

Um so and that that seems like what's reflected here.

Any other comments on the first section before we move on?

Doesn't look like it.

You'd like me to boom on, please.

So I believe that takes us to page three.

And you'd like me to just cover the changes or um what or give people.

Maybe just give just quickly sort of say what's here.

Okay.

And then you can highlight what's changed.

Sure.

At the top of that page, um, Madam Chair, we have capital investment projects.

You know, a lot of these are city assets right now.

The first one is the Mississippi River Learning Center.

Uh, that is not a city asset, it doesn't exist yet, but it's a bill that I know Representative Pinto has carried for a few years and has often been in the top couple for the the city in terms of bonding requests.

Um we're very hopeful that there's a bonding bill this year.

You all know Senator Sandy Pappas has been the chair of that committee.

Um she's announced her retirement, so this would be her final uh bite at that apple, and she's certainly been, I think, a good partner for the city and the county and others in this space.

Um the Como Zoo and Randolph Avenue Bridge and the Saints Ballpark Stadium are all city assets, so it makes sense for those to be billed.

They're all, I think, introduced already from last year.

Um, so it's a good time to check in on the momentum of those.

And um historic walnut steps on Summit Avenue came from the mayor herself.

Uh I don't know a lot about that right now, but I know it's a historic um project.

And then the one that we added was just the Kellogg Avenue Bridge.

Uh that also has been introduced.

And you know, that's a good example of the federal government um backing off on some of their commitments to the city.

So it puts us in a position of needing to look for dollars um elsewhere, and that's why this is on here.

Um just one quick question.

Is this list in order of priority?

Great question, madam chair.

Uh, it is not.

Okay.

Do we do we anticipate having these be in order in an order of priority?

You know, Madam Chair, that isn't a uh anything that we have talked through in the mayor's office.

Uh I think we have a little bit of time if we want to um explore that as a city and have conversations related to that.

Uh I think legislators eventually always appreciate when entities like us are focused.

Um, you know, I'll just be blunt.

There's no way we're gonna get everything.

So sometimes it's like having a list and seeing what sticks to the wall are where people are most passionate about um their priorities.

Okay, that's helpful.

I you know, this is also a very different format.

I think having pulled some bonding requests up to the legislative top priorities also makes it more clear.

I think we're always getting the question what is actually your top top?

Yeah.

Um, and or top three, and it seems like we now some of those are in the top priority summary, but um, we're used to seeing a bonding list, I think, itemized in order of preference.

So we'll defer to the to the administration's preference on that.

I think it's just helpful to know if one is above the others.

Any other comments on the we can keep going.

Moving on.

Yep.

In the parks and rec section uh and libraries, um, there's a couple of different places, if you will, at the legislature that deals with this.

There's different um there's regional park money, metro parks all lobby together on.

There's individual projects, and then there are you know things like the legacy funding bill and whatnot, that there's sometimes different ways to go about getting money for some of these.

Um I won't go into detail on a lot of these, unless there's any questions right now.

Questions?

Parks and libraries.

Moving on to public safety.

Um some of these have been around for a while.

Um, you know, I'll be honest, in a super tight uh divided legislature, it's gonna be hard to get anything done on gun safety and whatnot.

Um that second bullet there with um authorizing local governments to prohibit handguns and other weapons.

You know, this has been an interesting one in that uh I know at the county at least um we testified every single time we got an opportunity, you know, to allow local governments to be able to post for especially like for rec centers, community centers, libraries, um, just to be able to post that guns aren't allowed there.

Um we'll see if that moves anywhere this year.

But that's that's actually a bill that some of our St.

Paul legislators have carried.

And that's obviously critical, that one in the um the preemption one to all of the the package of gun safety measures that we passed last fall um to take a point.

So that's connected there.

Okay.

Thank you for reminding me of that.

Actually, before we move on, I'm I'm sorry, going back up to the parks in Rec St.

Paul Public Libraries.

Um, the modified state school bus safety requirements to require bus drivers to do a post-trip inspection to ensure all children have exited the bus.

As a child who fell asleep at the back of the bus and woke up when it was parked in the bus parking lot and really irritated my bus driver when he realized I was still there.

Um, totally understand the concern here.

I it just seems a little bit more like one of these things is not like the other in terms of very specific, and I'm just wondering, did this come from some some incident in our parks and rec department, or where did where is this coming from?

Madam Chair, thank you for that question.

I you know, I've read this through several times, and um that one popped up for me two days ago as well.

And I thought uh I thought there was an incident sometime in the last three or four years during a snowstorm in St.

Paul where a child was left on the bus.

Anyone else sounds familiar?

Remember that?

I remember reading it.

I remember reading it in the paper, and might have even gone back to COVID times, but I'll follow up with folks in the mayor's office.

I feel like somebody might know more there.

Okay.

Thank you.

Just a curiosity.

And I'm sorry you had that experience.

I've recovered.

Any other questions before we move on?

Oh, sorry, Miss Coleman.

Maybe we are moving on to this, the final bullet point under public safety.

Um, but just uh on the uh traffic safety camera pilot program.

I'm really pleased that this is included.

I know that this is has been a huge priority for folks in Mort 4, but also throughout the city as we think about what can be done to keep our streets safer.

So I'm thrilled that that's included.

I know that we are not the only city push being pushing to be added to the pilot program.

Um the only thing I just wanted to make a note of is that I know that the ACLU has raised um not concerns.

I think that I've really appreciated their most recent policy memo that they sent over to the state legislature about how to do this in a way that doesn't raise um kind of the privacy concerns that they've had in other jurisdictions that have done uh safety cameras.

So just would want to really encourage us to both to push very hard for this.

I think it's quite critical that we be added to the pilot and very frustrating that uh multiple municipalities around us have uh been able to participate already, but also just would urge the city to be in communication with the ACLU about that and making sure that we are in our advocacy, also being mindful of mitigating any outstanding concerns that remain.

Thanks, Ms.

Coleman.

Gotten a number of uh constituent requests to be part of the pilot program, and it has been frustrating to your point that we are not.

Thank you for that feedback.

I remember that's one that we were trying, we went back when I worked for the county, trying to be part of as well.

It came down to the state only had a certain number of dollars, and the city of Minneapolis and the city of Mendota Heights of all people were the two had that had led on this, so they were the ones that were allowed to um move forward with this.

The other part I would just point out you need to have a law enforcement partner who wants to participate.

I think that was one of the stumbling blocks we actually had at the county at the time.

This was like two years ago.

So we'll explore that more here.

And and the and I would just lastly say the pilot program is has started or kicked off, so we'll have to see what the appetite is for adding to that.

All right, madam chair, moving on to the ever popular other category.

Uh, we've included uh reinstatement of local cannabis aid, um additional funding for the replacement of the lead service water lines.

I think that's uh a very interesting one.

I would just point out, you know, water needs across the state are always a deal and something that Greater Minnesota is pushing for in terms of drinking water and wastewater.

So this is a nice place to partner, if you will, and just show that there are metro needs in the space as well.

Um the copper wire theft, a lot of you have a lot more background on this than I do.

I know the city was a big leader in this the last couple of years, and I know um it's been a huge expense for the city.

So we'll be probably looking to make sure that law stays intact, and that if there are tweaks need to be made that they go our direction.

The next two deal with uh are more HR related, and I'll confess I'm not very deep on them.

I was gonna work with assistant mayor Jody uh Farr to uh delve into those two more.

And then finally is the state St.

Paul Port Authorities legislative agenda, just looking for financial assistance for some of the um finishing touches, I think, for the Heights affordable housing uh projects.

Okay.

Any questions or additions?

Ms.

Coleman.

Thank you.

Oh, this is something I want to raise as an addition, um, and that I had spoken to the previous holder of your role about.

I think it's really excellent, and I'm thrilled to see what a priority we're placing on driving economic development downtown in our legislative agenda.

I would very much like to see us also emphasize driving economic development in other areas of the city, particularly in Midway, where we know that we have incredible opportunity and also incredible challenges in this moment.

One of the things that has been strenuously advocated for by folks throughout the city, but particularly in Ward 4 and I believe Ward 1, who are you know uh abutting on University Avenue is a land value tax.

My understanding is that there's conversation about a potential pilot for um Minneapolis to authorize a land value tax along Lake Street.

I believe that's correct.

Um I would be very eager to see St.

Paul given the authority to do the same for the area around selling and university, where again we have incredible opportunity, but also big, big challenges.

I think that having the state give us some additional authority to think about creative ways to incentivize development that don't require the expenditure of our dollars, but in fact raise revenue is something that is very promising.

Um again, I know that we would be in the early phases of understanding if that is a model that we want to pursue long term, but if there's going to be movement on that, I think it would be a missed opportunity if St.

Paul wasn't included.

Thanks, Ms.

Coleman.

I would second that, and I think a land value tax is a is a tool that um I think may have been on our legislative agenda in the past, and I think so is something that um we should definitely continue to support, and it would it would benefit areas in the midway as well as uh all over the city on the east side and the west side.

Um so yeah, I think that would be definitely add that in.

Would you like to see that added to this then for purposes of next week?

We can do that.

We'll work with you on language.

Thank you.

Thank you for that.

I'll move on to I think the final page and a half.

Um, these are support items in the legislative platform.

Uh, you all know, but I'll just say it out loud for the the microphone.

Like we work with a lot of partners in this space, whether it's other cities in Ramsey County, the city Minneapolis, other local governments, Ramsey County, for example, groups like the League of Cities and Metro Cities, and then obviously a lot of the community partners and nonprofits who are implementers, if you will, often of the work that we all do here.

So there's a lot of different bills we'll be tracking and watching.

And those I just wanted to call out some of those partners specifically.

A lot of the property tax relief that makes it easier for you with your budgets, and then also for our residents, whether they're renters or homeowners.

I know that's always an area that as metro urban counties and cities, we carry, I think a bigger burden than other parts of the state in this space.

Supporting new Americans, racial equity, economic justice and inclusion, access to clean water and whatnot, climate investments, support and expand support and whatnot for transit and complete streets, parks and rec funding and the like.

Thank you so much, Director.

Does that bring us to the end?

I think it does.

Thank you for the time today.

One quick question, and then again, I'll look to my colleagues to see if there are other questions or comments.

And we do still have time, obviously, between now and next week to submit ideas to the mayor's office and also to add them in as amendment amended versions of the legislative agenda that we'll be adopting next week.

We don't have a ton of time, so it's kind of today.

One question I have, Director is how do you anticipate using us to help advance this agenda?

I think that's something that this council has consistently said we we want to be helpful, especially on the items that we particularly feel um passionately about.

But I think in the past we've we've struggled to be, I would say, systemically integrated into the work.

I've gotten texts, you know, I'm currently at a hearing.

Can you come?

And that doesn't feel like being part of the plan or part of the journey.

So can you on day three say a little bit about how you envision that working?

Yeah, thank you for that question.

Uh, you know, I I look forward to working with all of you and the partners and council members who can't be here weren't here this morning.

Uh, I think you all bring a lot with your own relationships and you know, passions and priorities.

I think I think it's smart to use as many advocates as we can.

Um, I believe the mayor welcomes that.

Uh I'd like a little bit more time to flesh that out with uh the office I work in, and then uh work with you and others, however, that's appropriate to talk about, you know, maybe identifying a few passion areas that you want to be the point for the council.

I don't know how that looks like exactly.

We did something similar when I worked for the county, finding ways to just plug people in, and it worked pretty smoothly.

Obviously, you know, working with the mayor or the council president, or in the case downstairs, it was the county board chair, sort of were the leaders in that space.

But um, you know, it's the land value one, for example, that you brought up, council member is probably a great space for if there is action on that, and it's agreed to by others.

Um, you know, that you could be the point person on that or whatever.

I'd like some time again just to flesh that out with the people that I work for.

Um, but I think you know, strategic partnerships are a real priority of mayor, her, and uh would look forward to that.

Yeah, Ms.

Jost.

Um, thank you, Council President.

Uh well, director, it's really nice to see you here, and thanks for the presentation.

I just have a couple of comments.

Um, I'm really excited to see the uh of course the West 7th Corridor uh as a as a big priority that's very important to my constituents, to the council president's constituents, and really to the entire city.

Um last year, the council president and I and our staff spent some time around the sinkhole that formed um on 7th Street, and that's just the reality of that infrastructure and the condition that it's in, and also a lot of the infrastructure in our city, and um that's just such a major priority and a safety concern uh to get that street you know reconstructed and rehabilitated, and also um you know, putting transit that uh really meets the moment and the future of our city.

So I'm excited about that.

And I also just want to uplift the additional funding for the lead service lines.

Me and Councilman, Councilman Coleman all serve on the water board, and so that's something that's you know very important to all of us.

And then I just also want to highlight um the this is kind of at the end, but uh you know, our council really cares a lot about climate action and our climate resiliency initiatives.

So I'm really happy to see to see some of that on here towards the end, but I just want to elevate that that that's something that that we we care a lot about.

And then lastly, just one little comment.

I see at the end here for their support for mitigating the harms of PFAS in the water supply.

Um I think I don't know if that's for St.

Paul Regional Water.

It's my understanding that that's not a concern for our water supply yet, but could be in the future, and so maybe just you know, circling back with them about what is the timeline like for for that concern and what you know what what are the types of mitigation that may be needed in the future, but it was my understanding that's not an issue at the at the exact moment, but could be in the future.

Thank you for that feedback.

Yeah, thank you.

Thanks, Half Howard Just.

Ms.

Yang, thanks, Council President.

Well, Doc Director Work, I just wanted to share that I really like the idea that you threw out earlier about identifying which of these items are the ones that council members are most passionate about and could be delegated to work in partnership with you all.

I think that is very strategic.

You know, one because it's an additional, it's at a capacity to you and your team, and then also we can really work on the issues that are important to our constituents too.

For me, I note that there's a few already on the list here that um that are a priority of mine.

For example, the new uh Duluth and Case Community Rec Center, the park and the housing over at the Heights, and so those are just the a few at the top of my mind, and I would love to partner with you all on that.

Thank you.

Thanks, Ms.

Yang.

Um, and I would echo what my colleagues have said.

I think, Director, as you create your sort of operational plan for how to move this forward, if there's a way to um list out the priorities and give us an opportunity to indicate whether it's something that we would want to specifically support and help lead on.

Um, that would allow us all to indicate those preferences and make it easier for you to know who to who to contact for what.

So happy to help coordinate that process with you.

Thank you.

All right, any final comments or questions on this topic?

Otherwise, we will have this in front of us for hopefully final adoption next week in advance of the session beginning, and again, would hope folks can um enter any amendments to the legislative agenda today for next week.

All right, thanks so much.

Thank you.

Uh, with that, we'll move on to our second item on our agenda, and I think both Director Wilms and Mr.

Greenfield are coming back up.

Thank you, Chad.

Hi, good morning, Council President, Council members.

My name is Jay Welms, Director of Council Operations, and I'm here today to uh kick off the conversation and an update about administrative citations and uh the city of St.

Paul's work to implement this.

Um recalling back this has been you know a multi-year project process to get um charter authorization and as a brief refresher for you know those viewers uh you know in and and uh watching this, the administrative citations are a civil non-criminal enforcement tool to promote compliance with the city's ordinances, um, essentially uh most often thought of as a deterrent, uh, you know, and something that is a step before criminal enforcement of penalties that is actually you know in place and and in use for cities around uh the metro and all of the largest cities within uh the state of Minnesota.

So uh today's discussion highlights the um you know the the legislative history of how we got here, some of the legal and charter framework that governs it, and then most importantly, some of the key policy design considerations ahead.

Um, and so uh during that part of the presentation, um, Chief Policy Officer Tim Greenfield will provide a component.

Uh our uh legislative hearing officer Marshall Moorman will discuss a components of it, as well as our chief budget officer, Kamud Verkmah.

Um so and in addition to that, we'll we'll you know discuss some of the core values such as equity, fairness, due process, administrative efficiency, uh, and fiscal responsibility that has to have to be balanced together as this process moves forward.

So, as mentioned, uh here's a brief agenda of what we're going to discuss.

And so, you know, this is a selected history of administrative citations.

So in September 2021, um, which is kind of where the discussion picked up with the new council, uh, the charter commission declined to recommend authorization of administrative citations by a six to seven vote.

Then, following the election of a new council in November 2023, assuming office uh in 2024, later that year, the city passed resolution 241572 seeking to author seeking a recommendation from the city uh charter commission to authorize administrative uh citations.

Then in December 2024, the Charter Commission recommended authorizing administrative citations by uh a significant uh majority, 12 to 3.

Then in January 2025, the city passed ordinance 252 and uh resolution 25192.

Uh this authorized administrative citations by ordinance amending the charter, and then committed to establishing an administrative citations legislative advisory committee.

In April 2025, uh the city clerk certified that there was a successful voter petition, essentially placing administrative citations and the charter amendment proposal on the ballot for November 2025.

Uh at that time, the city passed resolution 25-658, delaying the deadline for establishment of the legislative advisory committee until no later than 90 days after successful voter authorization of administrative citations.

Then in November 2025, voters by an overwhelming majority approved administrative citations via referendum following the petition.

The vote was uh 68% to 31% or 32%.

And then in January 2026, the council recognizing that due to the mayoral transition and the city's coordinated response to federal immigration uh enforcement activity, the city passed resolution 26-170, which further delayed the establishment of the legislative advisory committee until no later than June 30, 2026.

So that uh brief selected history discusses how we got here, where we're at in the current moment, and what are the things uh that are you know guiding this process forward.

Uh so this is a sample uh or an expert of the enabling language within the charter.

And uh there's also subdivision one, but it it just has a brief section there, so I've really focused on uh subdivision two.

And essentially what the enabling language does is it provides clear authority for the city to use civil penalties.

Um it requires ordinance by ordinance, decision making.

Uh they're not automatically imposed.

Uh each ordinance uh has to be you know uh embedded in the code.

And I'll note here too, there's you know, their legislative code uh changes that are required, but also administrative code changes that might be required as we establish the uh implementation framework.

Um it also importantly uh imposes uh uh uh equity equity requirement.

Um any civil monetary penalty amount must be imposed equitably.

Uh and then it and then it you know sets forth due process procedures requiring appeals and then creates a judicial backstop uh within the district court.

So uh so that's one element of governance in the framework is of course what we are required and um allowed to do under state law, but then our own charter, and then the next item of governance or uh you know uh guidance on this was resolution 25-192, which established the legislative advisory committee, and then also committed to requiring ongoing annual departmental reporting through the budget process.

So that resolution did two things, but I think the key item within that was the legislative advisory committee.

So the purpose of the legislative advisory committee, and and as you know, these are defined under our charter uh to guide legislative changes, and can only be set up by the council and can only last one year from the time of establishment.

So essentially, once that committee is stood up and established, it has a one-year window to accomplish its work.

So the purpose of that was to produce a written equitable implementation framework to guide how administrative citations are implemented.

It created a broad group of members, academic expert on city import uh enforcement, labor union reser representation, district council representatives, community experts on fines and fees, a representative from the reparations commission from in a representative from an independent research organization, city staff related to enforcement and processes, and then also mandated council uh citywide representation from a broad mix of multiple wards.

All appointments to the legislative advisory commission must be made by resolution, uh so requiring uh you know some sort of application process and then uh a resolution appointing that.

And you know, as discussed under the requirements section, the report essentially focuses on ways to mitigate harmful impacts or potential impacts uh from an equity lens.

Uh also just you know how the citation revenue, civil fine revenue could be used, and then also um you know, looking at equitable enforcement practices.

And then in addition to that, review the city's existing fines, fees, and abatement structures about whether they fairly recoup public costs, discuss the historical impacts of fines and fees, and then you know, provide analysis of any potential harms to protected groups, especially as it relates to race and income.

So where we're at now is the really the crux of I think the you know conversation we're having and the work that's required of the council and as well as as the administration and the mayor's office.

So these are essentially uh you know major categories uh of design decisions that need to be applied comprehensively and thoughtfully to any area in which administrative citations is applied.

Um, there are many multiple different areas where administrative citations can be used, but in each one of these, we have to thoughtfully think through how this works, not only within council's contribution in amending the laws, but also you know, our own staff who might be called into doing uh dispute resolution, the appeals process, et cetera.

So you know what I wanted to say here today is that you know, this is a really complicated multi-partner group project, and we will need to partner with the administration closely on this, and from our side, as a council staff level, um, we you know, this is a all hands on deck moment, and so that's why we have multiple members of our team here to discuss how uh you know we'll proceed forward and the questions that you all have to consider and and then you know think through how we partner with the administration to lead forward on this work.

Ms.

Yang, thank you, Council President.

Well, I um do agree with you on Dr.

Romans about the need for that partnership across departments and offices.

Can you remind me what is what department or office is this concept of administration administrative citations going to be housed in?

Yeah, it's a it's a great question.

I think you know there have been multiple um uh cases or multiple potential you know approaches to this.

Uh so in uh an orchis organizational committee meeting back in June 2024, uh we had several presenters from the administration.

Hero was a uh you know, department in terms of the wage theft uh ordinance and and enforcement there, uh DSI was also a key area where this would be applied, water was another area, uh also some of the areas that affect public works.

Um really outlined a number of different places uh where this could occur, and I think also in the area of housing.

Um, you know, that's also so I think there's you know a multi-department uh you know, users of the tool, but also you know, we need to think through how it how it fits within each of those departments.

Okay, yeah, I I would say for me personally, that's still something that I'm processing because when I think about enforcement, like my mind goes directly to DSI, and then for housing, I know I go to P PED for that.

And so I do agree with you that this touches so many different departments, and I'm just still trying to process, okay, like if in the future I have a concern or a question about something, that does that mean I have to personally navigate which department I go to for a certain thing, or is there actually like one go-to department that can maybe redirect us to whoever we should be speaking with?

And so that's just the question that I have, and that's where the the heart of where that question came from earlier.

Yeah, thank you, Council President and Council Member Yang.

Thank you, Council President and Councilmember Yang.

It's a great question.

Uh and and I don't have a lot of clear answers, but it it is something that I think needs to be worked through in that design element.

Okay, I'm gonna pass it over to Tim Greenfield, our chief but our chief policy officer to discuss uh some of these elements.

Thanks, Jay.

Um and council members, thank you for the time.

Um so part of what Jay's um conversation to contextualize this next part of the conversation is you know, kind of where we are located uh in terms of moving this forward, are some of the questions that we need to answer to have answered from council members and you know, kind of work through them together as staff.

And part of these I think can all fit under the idea of policy design design decisions that exist within a framework that can be applied once we move into the next step of what type of uh ordinances we need to amend to add the administrative citation power.

So the first policy design consideration is the types of violations that we would apply the authority for a department to issue an administrative citation.

So the city council and the mayor's office need to collaborate and determine what types of violations will be applicable, and they can be categorized by a variety of different types, um, such as property, non-property licensing, um, parking violations.

Violations could also be categorized by a particular level of violations, you know, a major violation versus a minor violation, and also frequency can be built into uh the way that we built that that framework, that design choice.

So certain violations could equate to a major violation over time, or you could um you know put a if you have X number of violations for a property in a certain year, you could do um you know a variety of different um flexible design choices in terms of the types of violations, the severity at which you want to oppose it, and the impact that that uh determination would have in terms of the fee that would be assessed.

Um so what I would say generally is departments need to outline what enforcement tools will be available and determine where an administrative citation fits within that spectrum.

And part of that conversation is I think the categorization and the identification of severity.

Um so that will be kind of the conversation that will have to unfold with the types of violations and and whether we want to um design different types of violations for different departments as well.

I think that is also a consideration, whether you know um we want to allow that customization internally to the types of violations or whether we want the framework that innate that establishes the administrative citration structure in the city to set forth those that that standard.

Um, and so I think that also applies as well to fine amounts.

Um the determination of fine amounts, I think is uh a combination that will require continuous collaboration between the mayor's office and the city council in terms of initial design.

Um the factors that affect um like Jay was saying about deterrence, I think also are applicable for not just the types of violations but the fine amounts.

If deterrence is the ultimate charge here, not revenue generation as the general principle, then um fine amounts must be tailored to have some way to recognize um not be overly burdened or burdensome on lower income people to have too much deterrence or rather be too too overly punitive as to lose the deterrent effect, but at the same time be cognizant of the major corporations or the more well-funded entities that may be able to take on a higher you know proportion of uh of a fine.

So the ideal policy in terms of a fine amount would balance fairness and deterrence by creating a system that deters non-compliance, but at the same time doesn't create undue hardship for individuals that may be subject to an administrative citation.

Um and that is part of the overall design consideration that I think um we're we're faced with in facing the same factors of complexity, uh the ease of administration, and at the same time whether we want customization for specific determines specific departments for specific violations.

Um so that's where I would say uh where I would leave the conversation about the types of violations and fine amounts, and I'm happy to turn it over to my colleague, Ms.

Mormon to discuss more of the enforcement and dispute resolution considerations that are put forth, unless there are any questions on types of violations or fines, fine amounts.

No, and just as Ms.

Mormon comes up, I mean I I think it sounds like we're still at the very high level question phase.

Um I suspect we will want you to come back with more detail on the work plan to answer these questions, but I guess in the moment, it would be helpful to know if there are any questions you have for us right now, if there's guidance that this council can give as you move into the next step.

So, both from you, Mr.

Greenfield, from you, Ms.

Mormon.

If there's anything we should be, we should be specifically discussing at the moment.

Let us know.

I can speak to it.

Yeah, if it's so council president and council members, um, I think the key questions we have for you are you know later in when we discuss the next steps uh of the slides, and I think that's really where we were planning to decide how to approach this and see if we had any guidance or you know, from you all or feedback on how we're approaching that.

Um, you know, just at a high level, our plan is to create an internal working group with the city departments and administrative uh administrative departments and work through these questions.

Um it could also be designed separately where the city council passes a resolution and essentially asks the administration to propose to the city council, and we work through it that way.

Our approach was to work in tandem, you know, and and go through the process on an internal working group.

Um, and then I think there's an open question too that the council needs to um you know look at in terms of how the legislative advisory committee uh fits within that.

You know, we we have uh that established as uh a group that weighs in, and so essentially there's you know a three-party approach of council administration and a legislative advisory committee.

So I think those are the questions we were planning to talk about in next steps, but I think you know, our key goal here was to talk through the complexity and uh you know all the different areas that are potential choices.

Um thank you.

Welcome up, Ms.

Ms.

Mormon.

Council President, Council members.

Uh my task is to talk about enforcement and dispute resolution.

So let me begin with the first, and certainly they do blend back and forth.

Uh we've heard the word deterrence, and I'm gonna reframe that just slightly and say we need to change the culture of the people who interact with the city systems on say rent stabilization on how we handle tenant uh ordinance enforcement, and that is people who violate these ordinances know exactly what the consequences are.

People in the city understand which ordinances have which consequences, and so if you through the application of administrative citations, change the understanding that there are consequences, and the consequences are more expensive than following the code, that is ultimately what we're aiming for.

So you wouldn't even think about making the violation is the first thing.

You are deterred from making it, and then we talk about when we would write an order because there has been a finding.

We need to have a finding that there is a violation.

It has to be clear there needs to be evidence behind making that finding.

There needs to be the ability for the person who gets an order of some kind to fix that.

How do they remedy the situation?

People must be given the opportunity to remedy.

You simply don't move straight to punishment.

That isn't what we're about as a city.

We don't approach these things that way.

So you have this violation.

For example, if it's a rent stabilization, my rent was increased by 10% and it never got approved by anybody.

What is the correct cure to do that?

And if they aren't curing that problem, the person charging the rent, then what is the correct citation?

How do we apply the rules fairly?

Is this something that is a hundred percent?

Is this you know every single case gets audited, or is it something that's complaint-based?

How do we think about this so that person A and person B with the same violation are treated in the same fashion?

And if they aren't, what are the guidelines for deviating from that?

And we need to be super clear.

Uh I would say the consequences of the administrative citation.

It has to be meaningful, and we've talked about not overly punitive, but that it creates that stop yet.

Someone needs to be able to say, hey, these facts aren't true.

You just sent me a correction order, and I don't think that this is valid.

I don't think this is the way the circumstances are.

So there is a dispute resolution process that needs to be in place so you can cure the violation or say, hey, I don't even think there's a violation.

I want to talk about this some more.

If you fail to cure it, and it's been found you have one, and the administrative citation is issued, you have another opportunity to go through some dispute resolution process and say this isn't the correct amount for me for whatever reason.

The severity of the violation isn't a level two, it is a level one.

I've never done it before, but that they have the opportunity to have that kind of a discussion with the city.

I think when a department makes a finding, there needs to be a validation, a review of the facts that they are using by some entity, some sort of quality control.

For example, if a department were to issue a criminal citation for violating the legislative code, any chapter of the legislative code, that would have to be reviewed by the city attorney's office.

I've been here long enough to know that in the golden old days, we didn't necessarily have the city attorney's office reviewing the citations, and that set us up for problems.

And we don't want to see that happen here.

So how do we have whatever mechanism we choose that review to make sure we're getting it right out of the gates?

What a cure may look like, these need to be understood before the first tag is written.

You know, we are playing fair, basically.

We've all come to an understanding through whatever process to adopt these ordinances that this is fair.

People are going to disagree with the outcome.

That's why I exist in a lot of ways.

And that's legitimate that people disagree.

But they can look at the rules that were followed and how the city came to its determination and final decision.

These are clear rules.

Somebody just didn't write me an administrative citation, and I hate to say arbitrary and capricious.

You do not want to be seen.

You want doing anything that could be remotely construed that way.

You want to build this with credibility, credibility both in the code and credibility in the people that are carrying out what the code is.

And so, how do we do that?

That's rules that we all follow and that are understood culturally at the city and culturally in the community.

Um that I think, and I really want to emphasize the only way to proceed in my view is to have those concepts in place no matter what area the citation is being written in what functional area.

Do we know that and do we agree on it?

It is going to be quasi-judicial in nature if somebody appeals.

You catch those cases right now, and uh a lot of decisions come forward from the Board of Zoning Appeals, the HPC, the Planning Commission, and so on.

Those aren't the kinds of entities that make enforcement decisions.

They're making qualitative decisions about whether there should be a special condition use permit in a particular situation.

The two mechanisms we have right now to do the dispute resolution would be how you hear license violations, and that would be through an um administrative law judge process or through a legislative hearing process.

Those could be used and a hybrid could be developed, some functional situations, parks or public works might have one mechanism for doing this, other areas might have another.

But we do know that it's going to be uh, I would say it has to be a singular kind of an entity.

This is not uh enforcement shouldn't be a committee decision, unless it's quasi-judicial and you guys are voting on it, that it would, I think we don't have a vote in the neighborhood that undermines the uh even application of a policy principle.

We need to have always the same interpretation, and that's kind of where I would like to end us.

Thank you, Ms.

Mormon.

I want to make sure we have enough time for discussion.

So, how much more presentation do we have?

I need about 25 minutes.

Okay.

Good morning, Council President and Council members.

Um topics to be covered today on this slide is uh funding for implementation of this policy, um, payment of fines and revenue disposition.

Um we need when we are considering the the this policy, we need to think about the fiscal impact of it.

Um the initial implementation cost is uh going to be it will need to explicitly identify that um and need to budget it so that we can avoid any unfunded mandate.

As Director Wilms said, this is going to be a group project.

Of course, this cannot be done in isolation.

So the cross department coordination is needed.

Departments will need resources, more resources, more FTEs to implement the policy, and this has to be done in a way that is cost neutral.

Um regular reporting will also need to be considered to ensure that there is transparency.

And uh we could consider setting aside a portion of the citation revenue for ongoing program administration, system maintenance, and compliance monitoring.

Coming to the payment of fines, um, let's think about when when when the when the fine amount is being determined, let's consider clear payment deadlines to improve the cash flow predictability and reduce the administrative uh follow-up cost.

Um, is there going to be any incentive for early payment?

Uh is there going to be a late fee, escalating the penalties, multiple payment options.

How are we going to accept those payments?

You know, online, mail, um, in person, this is just going to improve the overall compliance tech.

Um, standardized payment plans to avoid long-term outstanding receivables, because later on, if we are tracking the receivables, there is going to be additional cost associated with that.

Um, and then about revenue disposition, it should be clearly defined in the policy to ensure the audit compliance and fiscal accountability.

Is this going to be sitting in the journal fund, special revenue fund or enterprise fund?

Um that is all going to reduce concerns that citations are actually revenue not revenue driven.

Um, and the priority should be given to recovering the direct and indirect cost before excess revenue can be applied elsewhere.

Um that's all I had for today.

Thank you for the time.

Great.

Thanks so much, Ms.

Rama.

Okay, and and I'll uh just briefly touch on this.

So essentially all these policy design considerations require the balancing of several different vital important values, you know, due process, of course.

Um, you know, uh compliance and deterrence, but sometimes these are you know pitted against each other in in some ways and require trade-offs.

You know, how many warnings do you issue before imposing the fine?

You know, um, how much of the cost do you recoup, or do you eat costs because you know there it's in pursuit of a larger goal?

So I think you know, as part of these design choices, there's certain values that require trade-offs within there.

Um and so as far as the next steps, our proposal is to engage with the administration and work through the various items that you know have been identified.

So recalling uh Councilmember Yang's question from earlier human rights identified earned sick and safe ordinance, minimum wage ordinance, uh DSI identified animal control, uh construction, uh such as work without proper permits, um, zoning issues, compliance with site plans, uh, rent stabilization, the water department identified illegal use of hydrants, performing plumbing services without a permit.

Uh so those are just a few of the examples of all the different areas.

And our plan was to engage with the administration and create an internal working group to work through these questions and answer the policy design considerations the best we can in a joint partnership.

Uh, you know, as I hope is become clear is that this is an incredibly complicated uh endeavor, even under the best of circumstances, but recalling that we're in the midst of uh you know extreme uh you know federal law enforcement immigration activity that's requiring an ordinate uh staff time, not only within our office, but the city attorney's office.

But recalling that we're in the midst of you know extreme, you know, federal law enforcement immigration activity that's requiring an ordinate uh staff time, not only within our office, but the city attorney's office.

We had a cyber attack in August, which reforced DSI to launch a minimally viable product with Pauli.

And so, you know, a lot of these things require staff coordination, thoughtful design, and really working through these things carefully and deliberately.

Um, and so if if the work plan is you know unclear uh you know, at this point, I think it it's because it there are a number of challenges that we are working through.

And so I think uh setting forth regular uh updates or a pattern um is one way to approach it to check in on the work that's occurring.

Uh and then another option too is to at a high level resolution, set forth expectations on the administration to propose plans and we work through it that way.

Uh but uh you know, essentially we're looking ahead to the budget discussion this year, where you know, we expect a key ask will be made in terms of the FTEs, uh electronic payments, any of the under structure that will support this administrative work will need to happen in this upcoming budget uh session.

And and so, you know, that at a high level, that's this kind of the next steps as identified uh back in June 2024, and where we're at currently in the moment.

Great.

Thanks so much, Director Wilms.

Thanks to everyone for the um helpful context.

I think we have a much better sense of all of the questions that have to be answered.

Um I have a few thoughts, but I want to look to my colleagues first to see if there are thoughts or or questions.

Ms.

Yang.

Thank you, Council President Council President.

I have um a question just wanting some clarity about the legislative advisory committee.

Um it's going to be delayed in terms of the establishment until no later no later than June 30th.

Does that mean that after June 30th is when officially like work will happen to do maybe like find members to sit on it, or is it that from now until June 30th, or that application process or whatever process is created that happens so that after June 30th, we you can officially convene people.

Can you clarify that for us?

Yeah, um, Council President and Councilmember Yang, it's a great question.

So the uh the resolution to amend it essentially establishes a deadline.

So the legislative advisory committee could be stood up and established earlier than that.

Of course, we would want to have uh an application period and um you know time to identify individuals and appoint via resolution.

So it can be established earlier than June 30th.

Um, but recalling you know, the the conversation about the current moment we're in and you know some of the challenges we're dealing with.

Uh, we wanted to set a realistic expectation on you know when we could set that up and and have that proceed forward.

So uh I think it's essentially up to you all as a counsel on when we you know start that work and if we want to impose an earlier deadline.

Great, thank you for clarifying that.

Yeah, and just wanted to name, like for me personally, being in the space here and and hearing the conversations about the presentations about administrative citations that brings back so many memories and and conversations, things we've heard in the um the council chambers here from people about why this is so important to them.

Like my hope is that we can get this up and running as soon as possible because um that's how we'll be able to start prioritizing what we've been hearing from the public over and over, which is like and for me, you know, why I hope that we can really prioritize um you know our earns that can save time, our $15 minimum wage ordinance, and also even like all these vacant storefronts and in our wards that are owned by um uh that that are basically corporate stores.

I mean, those are the ones, the the bad actors that I am very invested in in focusing on first.

And so I wanted to name that because I I think it's gonna be so important for us to utilize all of the input we've gotten for so many years now and and prioritize those things and take action on them right away.

Thanks, Ms.

Yang.

I I couldn't agree more, and I think um one of the things that I'm hearing from Mr.

Wilms, and then I think is maybe a uh tension point that's keeping things from moving forward is this question about how to start the legislative advisory committee at the same time as moving some of this other work forward.

And I think your suggestion is spot on.

I I think um the reason that I remember the legislative advisory committee being set up was to make sure that this wasn't overly punitive against individuals.

And all of us around the table felt really strongly that we'd be able to use this immediately against some of the large bad actors, um, especially given that most of the ordinances where admin citations are already written in are those kinds of you know, wage theft tenant protections, um, skyways, et cetera.

So my suggestion would be, especially if it helps your team clarify that the the um the initial work on admin citations focus only on actions against you know larger actors, maybe just not individuals, um, and have the legislative advisory committee be stood up and and advise on anything against individuals.

Um maybe that's too simplistic of a division, but I I don't want to not be able to do anything on admin citations until the legislative advisory committee is set up, and I don't want there to be confusion between what that is supposed to do and what we can move forward with in the meantime.

So that's that kind of seems to be the line that I've been hearing from colleagues.

Ms.

Joest.

Yeah, thank you, Council President.

Consumer Yang, I um agree with both of your comments, and I was gonna bring up what you just brought up.

And I I see that there should be a delineation as well between what is the purpose of the legislative advisory committee for like what types of things that they're going to review, because I also would like to get moving as quickly as possible on some of those you know, bigger items.

I mean, those are those are the main reasons why we were pushing forward administrative citations uh in the first place.

And so um I I also want to get to work on on those things as soon as possible.

Uh Mr.

Welms, a couple other just thoughts.

Um is that the question about should we pass a resolution or should we create the work group?

I would suggest we just create the work group.

I think a resolution is probably unnecessary and it would likely lead to a work group anyway.

I think the council should be involved in the administration discussion about this.

So I guess that would be my suggestion.

I also just I feel like we're I don't want us to spin with all the questions and all the different parameters that could go into a policy like this.

I recognize it's really complicated.

Um, but you know, one of the things we said a lot when we had this on the ballot and when we were talking about it as a council for the last four and a half years, um, is that we're one of the few cities that doesn't have this tool, which means that other cities have it and have policies related to it already.

So rather than kind of starting from scratch in a blank slate with all of these questions and having to answer all of them from brand new, I would really suggest we look at models, especially Minneapolis, other cities that are you know in Minnesota, um, and just you know, begin from something that already exists.

I think that will become less overwhelming.

Um and then finally, just on the budget question, I I want to make sure that yes, it will be a budget conversation, but my expectation is that admin citations pay for themselves.

These are allowed to be punitive fines for a reason.

They don't have to just recover our costs.

So while we may need to make some initial budget investments in staff, um overall, this should not just be net neutral, it should be a net positive.

We're these are punitive.

That's the whole point.

They're not just cost recovery.

So I just want to make sure that as we're talking about this, we're all on the same page about um this it's okay for the city to gain money from these bad actors because of their bad behavior, which again is my understanding of the whole reason for having admin citations.

So those are my thoughts.

Other other thoughts, Ms.

Yang.

Um, thanks, Council President.

I just wanted to show that I agree with that.

And I'm um I would uh encourage um Dr.

Rolms you all to have a conversation with Councilmember Bowie too, because she is the one who who um who felt strongly about putting together the legislative advisory committee.

So I would want to make sure that she gets filled in on the conversation that took place here and like the feedback from the from me and our my colleagues at the table here too.

And I um I agree with that last part that you mentioned, Council President, just about um it's okay for the city to be uh collecting revenue from this tool from those big bad actors.

And I I just wanted to share for me personally, like I um you know I'm not sure like how much of this conversation on administrative citations applies to the regular legislative hearing items that we hear about every single Wednesday.

Um, but I I want to let folks know that I I personally haven't seen any huge issues at all with how we're currently working or how that system is currently working.

I mean, whenever we hear people come to the podium here and testify that they can't afford the fee that is being assessed for them, then we have the option to um reduce it, we can spread it out into monthly installments.

And so um I I personally am not like even thinking about that at all.

And I think that um just based on some of the pushback I've been hearing from from people um in the community about why they're concerned or why they are even opposed to immunity citations in the first place.

I think that they're probably thinking like that is what we're focusing on, like how we can penalize um our residents who are not in compliance with our um with ordinance uh our codes around like housing, for example.

But I do think that we have a um a decent system that right now seems to be working well.

Um, and so that's not really um that's not something that I'm interested in touching uh, but I'm open to hearing other people's thoughts.

Just wanted to put that out there.

Thanks, Ms.

Hane.

Other thoughts is that a hand, Ms.

Cole.

Ms.

Colin.

Thank you.

It is a tentative hand because I'm thinking through this thought.

are um with ordinance uh our codes around like housing for example but i do think that we have a um a a a decent uh system that right now seems to be working well um and so that's not really um that's not something that i'm interested in touching uh uh but i'm open to hearing other people's thoughts just wanted to put that out there thanks other thoughts that a hand is called thank you i it is a tentative hand because i'm thinking through this thought um uh one of the uh i agree with much of what's been said um particularly around you know moving as quickly as possible while also respecting the um the committee that will be stood up and and kind of uh the division between uh you know uh emphasizing holding bad actors accountable large scale bad actors accountable as quickly as possible I think makes makes very good sense I I think one of the questions that I will be very interested in when it comes to the design is this question of what is the council role and kind of are we um expanding the instances in which the council is sitting as a quasi-judicial body I think that that um to the council president's point about how other cities are operating and how they are standing this up I think that to me is a very very important design question and one that I'll be very eager to learn more about and have a bit of knowledge about how they do things at least in Minneapolis but I think that that more a wider range perspective could be helpful.

I think that there is there are a number of challenges with sitting in the quasi-judicial role particularly when it comes to making um I I think that that can be challenging in a number of ways and I think we've seen that be challenging in the time that I've been here I think that there also you know that gives some opportunity for the council to be responsive to individual situations.

I guess what I'm saying is I think it it can be a hard balance to strike and I'd be very curious to be thinking about that critically and understanding what best practices are from other jurisdictions that have been doing this for far longer than we have Ms.

Coleman Any other thoughts or again I think what we're giving right now is just sort of high level guidance responses to some of the questions Mr Wolms asked.

Mr Wilms Yeah uh thank you Council President and Council members for the the input and and discussion I I think um you know it would be helpful too to you know have an update again and and bring the administration in um you know begin that conversation uh you know it it is a multi party process and and I think we'll need to to you know incorporate feedback from them and so I think it would be helpful to um you know uh set another update in uh you know a month or two months and and check in and get feedback then I think um you know based on the conversations we've heard and been a part of you know throughout this process I think there is concern from the administration about adding in uh you know additional work without additional resources and so I you know I anticipate that will be a conversation that will come up that's not to say that we cannot move forward um on on certain key areas that we you know signaled and promised to move forward on but I think you know making sure that that administrative administration voice uh is at the table and working through these challenges with us is is really important and so we will you know take this feedback into account we'll stand up the process to begin working through this uh and then I recommend we you know have a have a broader discussion next time around Mr.

Welms I agree and I would suggest that at that next conversation and I would I would defer to you as to whether a month or two months I wouldn't like to go farther than that but I also want that update to actually be um a substantive work plan.

So the amount of time that it will take for you and the administration to develop that I think should guide when we create that update.

And when I say work plan I'm thinking you know how long do we expect this entire process to take are we talking a year are we talking into next year a few months um and then what are the substantive steps of that plan um and when do we expect those to be done and who's responsible so um I recognize that will take some time to develop but I do think at least that draft work plan should be the next product that we take a look at.

So thank you uh council president and council members that's helpful feedback I'll work with the administration and we'll see what's what's possible you know we need to um work with them and then determine when the next update can come.

Okay.

Great any other comments or questions from our colleagues seeing none thank you so much for the really uh substantive conversation today and all the hard work to prepare for it uh with that there's nothing else to come before us and we are adjourned.