Uh, sat with your uh technology here or okay.

Why don't you come up here?

Can you do that from here?

Or I don't have quicker uh so you want to do it from over there?

Is that the idea?

I guess so, yeah.

Okay, I'd like to welcome everybody, the economic development committee meeting.

I'm joined here by Councillor The President Hudson, Councilman Majak, Councilman, and uh Councillor Panagua.

And we're here to discuss the uh battery energy storage project at four twenty-sex East East Brighton Avenue.

Before we get started, I know we have members of the public here.

This is a public meeting.

This isn't a public hearing.

So this is um the reason for this meeting is for the council in its deliberations to find out if we'll pass a special permit for this.

So uh for this meeting, anyways, we'll just entertain questions from the common counselors here that we'll go to the uh person who's proposed the proposal, and we have our fire chief here too, and the codes directors are here as I believe, too.

Um, Jake is here.

Okay.

So why don't you start, Mr.

North.

Council, my colleague said he will he will click along.

So why don't you come over here and sit right next to our fire chief here?

We're based in Troy, New York, just due uh east of here.

Um we are here to talk about a proposal for a battery energy storage system on four twenty-six East Brighton.

Uh we have our subject, all of our subject matter experts, including our fire safety uh personnel.

Um I could ask those folks just to introduce themselves, beginning with my colleague Mike Schauford.

Mike Schaffer, uh project.

I'm Jack Bowski.

I'm a team along with energy response group.

Uh okay, thank you.

Thank you.

Um that team consists of uh multidisciplinary civil engineering, and as you heard, um uh fire safety, which I think is the principal concern people ask questions about with respect to the project.

We'll obviously uh talk about that, but I also want to have an opportunity to speak about the benefits of the project, why the project.

Um so I'll just ask my colleague to hit the next slide.

Um you can keep going until we get to the first, there we go.

We've yeah, very quickly on us.

We've been permitting batteries in New York State for almost 10 years now.

We've actually been in New York City where uh we've permitted multiple batteries.

We have three batteries that have um come online in in Westchester.

Umta recently uh uh uh incentivized uh retail storage batteries for upstate New York, and we'll talk for a minute about why they're important for the grid.

Thanks.

So the the quick the quick uh overview of what these batteries are doing and why we believe the city of Syracuse, a city of this size would uh needs them, is essentially what they're doing is they're charging right now, uh electricity use is essentially uh as you go.

When you need to turn something on, you hope that there's a generation source that can provide that supply of energy.

This is a mechanism to actually store energy so that in in times of peak demand um when uh when for example in the middle of August when air conditions are blaring and offices are going and area industry is up and running, there's actually a residual or storage source of energy that can come online and provide additional generation to in this case the area's uh a significant section of Syracuse.

Next slide.

Um and what they're doing is they're offsetting uh the need for these types of plants to come online to provide that energy.

So this is a known as this is a peaker plant that is located on Bell Island Road.

Uh it is only operational uh for 26 hours per year, uh, and that is because uh it only turns on when Syracuse needs that energy uh for those time periods.

Now we're not gonna be able to eliminate the reliance on that plant, uh, but we can reduce the reliance of on that plant uh by 400 megawatt hours with the two projects that we're proposing.

And the idea here, and the reason that these are incentivized by NICERTA is that ratepayers are covering the cost of maintaining these old plants, these peaker plants.

They're generally dirtier, um, more expensive to maintain, and only made available for those times, those peak demands.

This is a way to provide a microgrid grid more locally in Syracuse and hopefully um put that type of a plant out of business.

Next slide.

So this is an example of what a battery energy storage system looks like.

This is the one that I referenced a minute ago that's in the the county of Westchester, and it's in actually a village of Hawthorne.

It's located in the back of a church parking lot in that case.

It's operational.

Uh you can see it's got some fencing and some uh visual screening, which will uh grow up.

And I have some visual simulations I can provide uh for the proposed project that we're um we're advancing.

Next slide.

Next slide.

This is a a little bit too much detail on on uh and then now our project and its location.

Thanks.

Um you can see that we're located um on East Brighton uh in a commercially zoned area.

We're about a half mile away from the rock cut substation down further south where the 480 um where the interchange is for the highway 481.

Um it's currently um mostly a vacant site, but it's used by the landowner as a dumpster.

He has an active lease with a dumpster uh storage company.

So we would be eliminating that use and proposing two five megawatt um battery energy storage systems at that location.

Next slide, thanks.

This is just a uh just a close-up of what that lot looks like today.

There's a ravine to the left, uh commercial um road on the right.

There is a substation directly next door.

Uh we're actually not plugging into that substation.

That's a switching station for uh higher voltage, but it gives you a sense of the kind of the character of that immediate spot.

Of course, we've been in um communication with folks in the area.

We've been to five at this point, five public meetings.

Uh we had a special meeting at the Central Syracuse uh Baptist Church.

Uh we were on uh TNT, we presented at TNT South Side, um TNT East Side, um, and uh have been to obviously uh a number of uh of city council meetings, and and so we realize that there are folks and folks who are here today who are concerned about you know the the location of this site.

The reason we think this is a good site is that it's not adjacent to any residential areas and we can residential properties and we can uh be clear about the fire safety piece in a minute.

Um great.

So uh here's uh just a visual from the road looking out on the site as to what that lot looks like today, and then there's a visual simulation we can show you.

This is actually the site plan that was approved by the city planning commission.

The um we're here today because we've made our way through the city planning commission.

It's been found as a allowable use under the utility major provision in the zoning code.

Um this shows the location of two fenced in areas, two five megawatt, uh four hour batteries that would be located.

Uh in this case, you can see there are a number of poles uh that were uh proposed.

Uh our goals to eliminate as many of those poles as we can.

Uh in fact, we're having National Grid now look at um pad mounted equipment to avoid most poles.

Next uh so this is what the site will look like once it's uh you know at the time of planting, basically at the time of installation.

It'll remove a lot of the impervious surface that's already out there.

Uh this is just a basic uh visualization of what you can see, like the height and the fencing and and how it will look from the road as you're going by.

Um this anticipates I think sidewalk improvements that are scheduled for that uh for that area.

Next slide.

Um and then this is what it will be like uh after a five year period where the you know where these are growing up, uh the arbor viters are growing up.

It was a request for some uh more attractive uh vegetation, we can certainly accommodate that.

Um next slide.

So um again, why it makes sense.

A couple things to know from uh from the point of view of grid reliability uh as well as um you know, sort of the efficiency I was talking about before, and then also you know financial benefits to to residents uh from a ratepayer perspective.

So we will be investing uh a million dollars into the local substation, the Rock Cut substation.

Substations um around National Grid are in line for what's known as three VO safety and reliability equipment.

It's actually uh should be installed at all substations and uh at the pace that National Grid is going, charging ratepayers, they're installing those.

This will usher in our investment in three VO safety equipment at that substation sooner than it would otherwise have been installed.

And what 3VO is, and I'm not a not a utility engineer, but what I can tell you broadly is that three VO engineering is essentially a series of uh trips and switches and and uh safety equipment that will be installed in that substation, which it really should be there anyway.

Provides backup power, these two these two projects uh for up to 10,000 residents uh for four hours, um, reduces that reliance on PK plants, which I I'm I referenced, those streetscape improvements, and then we'll pay taxes to the city of Syracuse.

We're a propos or you know, open to a pilot if the city would prefer to do that through the IDA or any other mechanism.

Um we've talked about also making um some investments in parks and things like that uh for the city.

And then just very quickly on um uh how how it can benefit um ratepayers.

So um essentially uh this this project will contribute funding to what's known as the um energy affordable affordability program.

And under the energy affordability program, you're automatically if you're enrolled in heap, uh which many of you are familiar with, uh, you will automatically be enrolled in the energy affordability program.

Um and then if you are um in that program, you can get an additional uh electricity credit of up to $64 per month, not exclusively coming from our project, but our project contributes to that fund that provides those discounts.

So there's a line of sight between this project and uh cost savings for for residents.

And the other thing too is it'll reduce the ultimate charge to ratepayers for things like the three VO investments that need to happen in that substation and also maintaining that PICAR plan.

So these were all cost reduction measures that happen as a result of the project.

Next slide.

And then this just gives you a sense of the distribution network that the substation is connected to in the city of Syracuse.

So you can see it it it touches the south side and also the uh the east side neighborhoods.

Um basically the electrons that our batteries will be injecting into the grid are going to become available first to these areas, but also more broadly in the city of Syracuse wherever need arises.

But that is the local distribution network that we we will be plugging into.

Next slide.

Um I'm gonna um ask my colleague uh Adam uh if you don't mind uh saying a few words about battery storage safety.

I just want to ask a couple questions.

Proximity to nearby buildings, how close are you being nearby buildings?

Well, the nearest residence is uh okay, buildings you've asked for.

Yeah.

Um the ST foreign auto uh property, I believe is do you know happen to know Mike roughly?

75 feet 75 feet?

So you're talking less than 30 yards.

Yeah, around 30 yards.

Okay.

What about toxic waste?

Uh I mean, how do you transport?

Is there any toxic waste produced in this at all?

There's nothing um there's no emissions coming out of this uh site whatsoever.

What about material that I'm not worried about?

Um these are uh lithium iron built uh batteries, and there are there are some uh materials in there that you know cause the concern that comes up around safety, and that's I have my fire safety experts that can talk about that.

Okay.

And nurse, they're how excuse me, sir.

They're housed in cabinets.

I'm sorry, I I wasn't really good in science in school and barely taught it in Undergog of Ellie Academy, but uh well, I didn't go to Hunter, no thing.

I I praise the Lord every time I say that.

Um but what about seepage and things like that in the ground wall?

No, they're in fact they these are solid state batteries that mostly you know there's no there's gonna be no emissions.

Um they will be self-contained.

I mean the only thing that you're gonna have that you'll hear is there's some HVAC system and connect it to them to fans to keep them cool.

Um but the you know the the chemistry and the science around um lithium iron battery batteries has been around for it's the state of the art.

Um I actually saw a professor Quinn here from uh Syracuse University.

He is involved in uh uh the upstate battery engine project, which researches uh cutting edge technology at Syracuse University around batteries.

I'm sure he could talk about it.

But we have lots of materials we can offer the council on the uh and what about like a state agency monitors these facilities or who manages your facilities?

So the DEC or what?

There's a series of requirements under the um under the fire code of New York State, which is to be adopted on January 1st.

That the the amendments related specifically to battery energy storage systems among them includes a of uh 24-7 battery monitoring system.

So these will be monitored off-site.

If anything comes up, it'll trigger uh flag for uh for you know anything, any just any disruption in service, anything like that.

Number one.

Number two, there's a peer review committee that the of experts that this that NICERTA insists review these plans prior to the actual construction so that they conform with what the plans that were submitted to the uh not only conform to the plans that were submitted to the council and the plant planning commission, but also that those plans conform to the fire code.

The peer review is all all about plans, though.

I mean, as far as they don't monitor how the plant operates or anything like that, or do they?

The monitoring will be uh there is a monitoring, there's gonna be monitoring, which is gonna be full 24-7 from off-site uh battery monitoring system.

There will be witness testing with national grid when it's actually constructed.

We're also happy to work with the city of codes to make sure that the city has a chance to inspect the uh and the fire chief uh fire department have chance to inspect and approve the plans as they normally would, not only put pre-construction but post-construction.

And somebody will be there around the clock?

This is not going to be a uh site where there's a person around the clock.

It's fenced off.

It would be like any other piece of electrical infrastructure that is monitored from off-site.

Okay, we'll go to the energy storage, but I wanted to get with the chef chief too at some point.

So if you can I ask someone, sure, sure.

When we're talking about the fire, because I'm gonna bring this up again because I brought it up last week.

There was an incident in Oneida with lithium battery on a school bus, and it took the fire department quite a while to put that fire out.

So how volatile are we with that?

Yeah, I I I try not to be the uh subject matter expert on fire uh safety.

So how do I bring my folks in to answer that type of question?

Well, uh let's I let's go to the underdog storage and then we'll go to the fire chief and he'll Okay.

So um uh Mike uh Adam uh Jakobowski and Paul Rogers, who are the two uh uh fire safety expert folks.

Uh should they come up and sit at the table or that's okay?

Or wherever you think is appropriate.

Morning.

So essentially the slide behind us is is pretty dense with information, and the goal here isn't to go through every item there.

What what this is that better?

Yes.

All right.

What what the slides intent here is to display is the amount and layers of protection that are included in these systems from the design, the manufacturing, the installation to the fire code, and of course, fire department training and emergency response planning.

There are a lot of layers of protection, a lot of safety nets that have to be put into place before these installations can even be built.

And that's what this slide slide shows.

I don't think it's uh appropriate now to go through every individual item.

Uh, but if there are specific questions on the layers of protection, what we call the fence in depth, I'd be happy to discuss them further.

In terms of monitoring, there's there's two separate monitoring devices, so to speak.

There's the battery management system, as as Terrence discussed, where off site, they monitor voltage, temperature, current, and if there's an issue, the system itself will disconnect itself so it can't charge or discharge, and we'll also cause a response.

Is somebody going to go to the site and and check exactly what it is to put it back in service, or is there in uh uh some sort of other response necessary?

The other monitoring in the very unlikely events of an incident or even an off-gassing event from a battery, very unlikely.

There are smoke detectors, there are heat detectors, there are gas detectors, just like we would have in a residence or a commercial building.

Those are all centrally monitored, sort of like an ADT system where they will automatically dispatch local emergency response resources to respond to the site.

And that response will be in conjunction with whoever is monitoring the system remotely.

Okay, so in other words, but but is that an internal security?

Not security, and internal response.

I mean, obviously you're plugged into like the fire department, correct?

Or something like that?

How is that work?

How's your defense in depth work in other words?

So if there's an incident like a smoke detector goes up or fire detector, what happened, what happens linear?

So New Leap has committed to central monitoring.

So ADT would dispatch the fire department just as they would for a smoke detector in a house.

How would the fire department get in the facility?

So we don't recommend entering the facility unless there's a life safety concern.

But they would have access immediately to the to the fenced gate, and there will be a Knox box on site if there is a reason to get into the facility itself.

How would they get into the actual box?

So they don't get into the actual boxes, they're non-enterable enclosures.

And the recommendation from us and in the industry is to apply water only to protect exposures.

We don't want to apply water to the involved enclosure.

They are designed and tested to fail gracefully and not spread beyond the enclosure itself.

That is their intent.

Now it's not that water can't put out the flames.

It's that it's an enclosure.

The batteries are in modules which are in racks, which are in a big metal steel cabinet.

So the analogy I like to use is trying to water the flowers inside your house by spraying water on the roof.

The problem is not that we can't extinguish the visible flames, it's that we can't get water to it.

And we don't want emergency response personnel opening anything with steward energy or electrical energy.

So if there was a fire, how would you put it out?

So you put you have water available to protect exposures if necessary, but the system itself will consume the fuel that's available to it, and it will essentially consume itself.

So what's the percent of probability of these catching fire?

So from 2018 to 2024, there were 81 battery energy storage incidents globally.

The large majority of those were outside of the United States, and several of the ones in the United States were not even lithium-ion and were also not in battery energy storage systems uh perhaps manufacturing.

In that time from 2018 to 2024, incidents have dropped 98% based on deployment.

You know, since we're talking fire uh uh let's chief, you want to why don't you weigh in on this here?

Okay, let me throw this question in before.

So out of the 14 installed in New York State, you said 14, right?

14 throughout New York?

No, we've been involved in well, we've been involved in multiple months.

There are three in Westchester County that we have come online.

Okay.

Yeah.

So out of that three, how long have they been in the last two years?

Okay, and out of that time frame that they have been here, has there been audit done, studies done to see the the the risk and and and things like that.

Has there been any any white paper out there for the Yeah, there's well there there are no incidents on at those locations, nor in any in uh New York City I'm familiar with and there are there are deployments in New York City.

Go ahead.

Yeah, yeah.

Uh New York City has at least 40 with about another 40 in the queue to be uh installed in New York City.

Um I do want to give the chief an opportunity to speak, uh, but I do want to also talk about defense in depth and and what was done in New York City and how it aligns with the state code today.

Uh New York City right now has no incidents that have taken place.

Uh and as I said, there's about approximately 40.

Uh a little bit about my background.

I I worked in the New York City fire department where I was a lieutenant in the hazard material world.

Um I uh I worked on these battery energy stores starting in 2013.

Uh during that particular time, uh the codes and standards were not uh robust.

Uh we worked on those codes and standards.

We did five years of RD working with the military and work with the other partners, uh, underwriters laboratory, the NFPA, and uh we developed the first code uh in the country.

That was a springboard for what the NFPA wound up using and what the state wound up using.

So all of that work that was done uh was uh again five years of of RD.

So heavily regulated industry.

Uh we were concerned, just like you're concerned on uh an event taking place, uh especially in New York City in very dense urban environments, similar to what we have here in Syracuse.

Um we wound up uh we understood the need at that particular time when we knew that the uh nuclear power plant was closing down.

But what the big game changer was uh for us in New York City, which made a big deal for us was the the large scale fire testing.

And that is destructive testing, where we uh uh we told people to burn their systems.

We said we want to know what happens.

Uh not only did we want to prevent it from taking place, but we want to know what happens when it does take place, what are the characteristics of the failure, what comes out, what hazards come out as a result of the failure.

And then we we took all of that and we worked with the operations like myself, and we uh put a plan together uh in the event that something did happen, whether we can actually manage the incident.

Uh incidents happen uh throughout the United States uh in a lot of different features in a lot of different areas.

Um, but we wanted to know in this particular one, what would we actually need to do in the event that there's a failure uh in the in the city of New York?

And we looked at it from a management point of view, not from an extinguishing point of view.

And what was your rank in the lieutenant?

I was lieutenant.

Okay.

And uh we looked at it from a management and uh and that and that was uh as a result of uh critical infrastructure.

We knew that we knew we needed it in New York City uh to keep the continuity of operations of the city going.

Uh at one particular time we were looking at these things going into high-rise buildings.

Um and uh when we worked with the military, we were very interested in work that they had done in the submarines where they actually use uh uh battery, lithium ion batteries in the submarines themselves.

So we we looked at that and we said, well, you take a submarine, you have to stick it up like that, you got your high-rise buildings.

Uh but we we pumped the brakes on the uh on the indoor installations, and we felt very comfortable on the outdoor installations uh moving forward and rooftops in in that particular one because we knew we needed to get them somewhere into the buildings themselves.

So we felt more comfortable on rooftops than we did uh inside the buildings themselves.

Uh today they do have a pathway forward into uh into New York City.

But again, the big the big deal was uh the destructive testing where we actually had them burn the batteries.

We wanted to make sure that if these things did go on fire, what would be the characteristics and the hazards that the fire department would be able to manage?

So that was a big deal.

We'll talk more about that later.

I sit on all of those standards and FPA 855.

I sit on the the state standard, New York City.

I sit on the uh UL uh listing standards, the UL 9540 destructive testing standard.

So all of those standards are uh the the are incorporated to have a voice from the fire service.

Uh and and that's where I I sit in is to look at it from a voice from the fire service to make sure that the fire service is actually kept safe.

Well, thanks, Lieutenant, and uh we'll I think we'll go to the chief now and you because you were you were you talked before the study session and all that and that and as I mentioned with the planning commission as part of the planning commission process, uh usually the fire department isn't there.

And I'm I'm glad that we passed legislation that where special use permit is is needed for establishing something like this.

So chief, why don't you weigh in here?

Okay, thank you.

And um I think the number one concern here um is the introduction of these facilities.

Um our city's never um dealt with these before.

And um I'm gonna give an overview based on my conversations with many of the counselors, some of the neighbor neighbors in the area where this is proposed um a lot of our internal staffing um staffers in the city um at codes and at the planning division, along with our uh fire department uh fire prevention.

I got deputy chief uh Rusty Cowburn, uh George Cowburn and Executive Deputy Chief Elton Davis, along with Jake Deshaw and Michael Collins are here.

And uh we've had a lot of conversations about this.

And I think um the the number one concern is and you all know me, any projects that I've been involved with that you we need permission from the council is regardless of this one is um the it's the process.

How is it gonna be implemented?

How is it gonna be sustained for the protection of our uh residents and the properties?

And I just want to begin by discussing how other municipalities, because we're not the first ones in the state that had to deal with this introduction of these facilities and how they handled it.

And I think their approach offers an important framework that I believe Syracuse should consider.

Um municipalities, a lot of them have temporarily paused any new applications for these facilities so the city in itself can fully evaluate um the technology before um these facilities are developed in our neighborhoods to really get a full understanding.

And as we're talking, I've talked to a bunch of counselors.

As um the fire department knows the fire fighting aspect, um, we're trying to educate everybody.

And I think there's some things that we need to do before any approval is done.

Um I'm not saying we need to do a ban or a moratorium like cities like Oswego, cities of Yonkers.

Um, and it's not to say no to this technology, it's so we are doing it the right way.

We're implementing these uh technologies that um I guess if you talk to the energy experts, these uh facilities are going to be needed.

But there are things that we need to you know pay attention to.

Um we need to study the fire risks in our city.

We need to study our fire suppression efforts.

We need to make sure other departments like the water department and uh engineering and other departments and what are their challenges because we haven't discussed those yet.

We need to also allow the city to you know do review on chemical environmental hazards.

Some of the questions you've been asking, some of the questions that the uh neighbors uh next door to this proposal has been asking.

We need to analyze the land use compatibility in our dense neighborhoods.

And I know that they've been the proposed developers been doing outreach, um, but I think specifically for these particular facilities, we need to really figure out what our game plan is and and uh figure out the steps to move forward because the messaging, you know, throughout the state, um it's clear it's not rejecting this technology, it's making sure that we get the safety standards right before we engage in these large-scale installations in it before they're placed in our neighborhood.

So I believe we would benefit from a similar um type of process um because a lot of places like Yonkers, um, I talked to the fire chief in uh Oswego, who they do have a moratorium right now, and they have dense neighborhoods.

Um they're worried about you know the distance between residential commercial properties, same things that are being brought up now.

Um they're worried about the suitable parcels that can actually have these high-hazard systems.

And I think the biggest concern is right now we have no local policy or framework tailored to these types of facilities that we need to look at ourselves in the mirror and figure out what we want to do.

And that's why Owen Kearney's been uh from our planning um department.

He's as uh organizing with other city staffers, including myself and Jake Deshaw.

We're trying to put together a working group to study the issues in a comprehensive way, um, and it will address the broader questions that go far beyond um anything that the fire chief wants to approve or disapprove with the code.

But you know, and I think this is uh uh something for the counselor, something for um um the mayor's office, uh the neighborhood.

Um what exactly do we want in our neighborhoods with these facilities?

You know, where if anywhere do we want these facilities to go?

Um, and what level of risk is acceptable with um like um the gentleman said, you know, our extinguishment efforts aren't gonna be as what we're used to.

It's gonna take some time, it's gonna take some staffing issues with the fire department, and a lot of times these fires are gonna have to burn themselves out, and we have to worry about the residual neighborhoods that uh are gonna be affected with our staffing being put at this fire.

So I've been in you know close contact with uh counselor uh Patrona Rouser, um Monto, Corey Williams.

We've discussed um what are our next steps for these, and uh I think this working group, we would like to get some counselors on this working group so we can be united on how we move forward because this the proposal isn't gonna be the first one and it's not gonna be the last one.

Um we don't officially see any formal um um plans or permit permits that are put to us so we can officially formally or informal formally uh approve a plan.

We saw a concept in a pre-development meeting, and oftentimes uh sometimes those don't end up being what is built.

So until the special use permit or land permit is approved by the council, that's when um the developer would submit the plan to a um to the central permitting office, and then our experts will review the plans and make sure it meets the code.

And if it meets the code, um that's my job.

It's pretty strict of what my my job is is to make sure anything that's proposed it it meets the intent of the code.

And anywhere where there's any um ability for me to go um to stray away from the code, um that proposal and that pathway has to meet the intent of the code or go above and beyond it.

And um, from what we saw in the pre-development meetings, I don't believe we're there with this project right now.

But I think at some point somebody's going to propose a project that's gonna be code compliant, but we need to figure out the broader questions of how do we want to implement these facilities in our city.

And I think it's a bigger conversation than just uh the fire chief.

I don't um have a problem with saying where we're at with the code and uh my uh stance is right now.

I don't believe uh this meets where uh our fire department in our plan review would approve it.

But I think outside of the code, there's bigger conversations that need to be having um that working group, that's what my um suggestion is.

And I don't want to speak on behalf of Jake Deshaw and Michael Collins, but I think we gotta holistically look at this um these projects and see what we want to do as a city and what type of uh procedures and local laws we want to put in place to make sure they're safe for our the constituents and the people of our city and the neighborhoods.

Thank you, Chief.

Uh any any questions for my fellow colleagues go on go on, Councilman Ibe.

And I think this is addressed to everyone that's here.

Um and I'm looking at the general notes, and this is what concerns me, and it's right at the bottom.

To the extent that trees and other features affect the system's production, such production modeling is based on the existing approximate heights and locations relative to the system and may be impacted as trees grow and other features change.

Now, I had a meeting with Mr.

Nolan about a proposal about one on on Park Street near the regional market.

And I so I want that out of the public, but this concerns me because in the facilities, as trees grow and anything else, how is it going to uh impact uh not only this facility, but for those people, some who are here now, uh in the future, like this person here's concern first with this toxic chemicals and a metal box.

So I mean, can we have can we get an answer to my question on these notes on what the risks are?

I think I'm gonna defer to my experts on the risk rate.

You're talking about excuse me, just as I understand the question, you're asking about the proximity to vegetation or trees at least over time.

Right, it's over time, because now it's just as trees grow.

Right.

And what effect would it have on trees?

If trees, if the the areas closer to trees and the trees get touched to the wires, uh there is a lot of environmental concerns for the residents who live in the area.

That what it what is is going on.

I think uh my concerns, I think we should address them now.

If you want to answer it, I appreciate it.

Yeah, good question.

Um reason that New York City had such great success is the idea that they have uh uh inspection and testing and maintenance.

So that has to be done on an annual basis to make sure that these things are up and operating properly all the time throughout the life of the system itself.

So what we did is we took that and we put it into the updated fire code.

All of that now is into the updated fire code to make sure that there's an operation and a manual, an operation and maintenance uh program that is supplied by uh the uh developer.

So they have to make sure, and and vegetation is one of them, right?

That's a big one.

We we do see that.

Uh, we went out and did uh uh in in full transparency, we went out and did some uh inspections for uh NYCERTA to take a look at the systems that are at uh that were out there, and that was the recommendation that we made in the in the fire code is because there were some people that were just setting and forgetting.

We did not want that anymore.

And this is why we put in a couple of things into this into the code to make sure that the oversight is constantly throughout the life of the system is is adhered to.

So we wanted to make sure that there is someone, a point of contact for the fire service.

New York City has this thing called the Certificate of Fitness Program, where they have a uh a group of people, they have to have at least four people on the site.

Uh not constantly, they have to be available for the fire service.

And that's always, and that's what we did in in the in the fire code is to make sure that the the fire department has a reach back number in the event that something takes place, and if the fire department needs them, they can actually show up within a four-hour time.

Well, I appreciate that.

But my concern is, and I'll do respect, uh, and that's fine, but we have to look within our own community, our own concerns.

And Chief Monts, you have you have a comment on this.

Um, as far as can you um just clarify?

On this and and what the gentleman uh lieutenant, your counterpart has said.

As far as what counselor you have a further comment.

Um, about the toxic chemicals, what I've just addressed, maybe growing a trees, because what and I do respect you what's going on in New York City.

But we are densely populated here, you know.

Um we're so I want to talk about more of not what goes on in New York City, respectfully, but what goes on within our own neighborhoods, because this is in proximity to our neighborhoods.

I think uh counselor um I think the the main issue is um all this is new information, right?

We're talking about environmental concerns, um different toxic, um, and you're asking how that's gonna interact with the um greenery and shrubbery and trees and different types of environmental uh parts of this particular project.

Um and that's why I recommend that, you know, and I talked to Councillor Hogan about it.

Um answering all those questions right now.

I don't have those answers about environmental concerns, and we need to get people that are experts um to make sure that guide they guide us with these environmental concerns that you're asking.

I can talk about some of the fire risks, the hazards that we're gonna face that our firefighters are gonna face.

I can talk about that all day.

But as we get into environmental risks with these facilities, um, and this is uh I'll go back to other cities have already been through this, and you know, they actually contracted and put an RFP out to have somebody come and evaluate all this, a third party to help us guide us to figure out what we want to do and get all these answers.

Um, not just for me, I'm not uh uh an environmental expert, so I can't answer that.

I know that when these fires burn, it's gonna create toxic toxic fumes, gases, um, all those things that happen in regular fires, these are a little bit different.

But um to your specific question, I think we need to get the right people at the table to answer these questions.

So we're all educated and we're all on the same page about what we're doing uh with this process for the next steps.

And I don't know if this is an appropriate, I don't know if anybody here can answer these questions, but I know um we've you know um um Commissioner Collins is here, and um he might have some other conversations that he has to um discuss.

I think I I agree with the chief here.

I think there's a couple of questions.

First of all, and you've been very eloquent as far as like this is a new technology, and basically for us as a as a city, we have to deal with it, but we currently don't have a plan basically to deal with it, correct?

Yes, and I think maybe a collaboration with you and uh the code director where I know you guys work together all the time, as far as that goes, is a big step forward.

But you know, I I read in the Times just the other day that the needs, electrical needs of this country is are going to be tenfold down the road with all these data centers and all that that is happening.

So we also have another, I believe uh, I know we have a planning commission member here, but I know there's another proposal for Boulevard West for another company.

So I I think there's two questions, Mike.

If you could answer one, uh you are you in agreement with the chief and me about that there should be some sort of collaborative effort so we have some sort of plan going forward, a vehicle going forward.

And second, this is uh important to me too, with the advent of Micron and the amount of people that are moving this area.

Do we look at Brighton Avenue as a place where it is mixed commercial and industrial development or just residential down the road?

I know personally there's a uh gentleman here who's the who's who's put maybe 50 million dollars worth of development into that area.

You know, so I think that's just something that the city at some level, and I would just wonder what the administration would would think about that.

Sure.

Uh Michael Collins Commissioner of Neighborhood and Business Development.

Uh to address uh the the second question you're gonna answer a little bit quicker, and and that's that uh you know, Brighton uh as you as you look at it, certainly in the area that we're this proposed project is already uh uh mixed zoned uh throughout.

And that's that uh you know Brighton uh as you as you look at it certainly in the area that w this proposed project is already uh uh mixed zoned uh throughout and uh there's there's not uh as we see um the types of development that'll be proposed for that we expect that it would stay largely uh as as uh diverse as it is right now so uh you know we we've got uh uh retail businesses uh apartments up there uh there's you know warehousing right off on Ainsley there's so there's a lot of different um uh just a healthy mix of stuff up there so we would expect that would stay similar uh to to Chief's point uh as we've been uh evaluating this proposal I I believe that this proposal came at really a a a good time for the city of Syracuse and that's because we do have a situation in front of us where uh everybody wants a piece of Syracuse.

We are the place to be and so we are uh consistently looking at how do we grow in a way that is healthy that is welcoming and that respects uh what we already have and that's why we did the updated zoning code in 2023.

Uh that's why you we we keep bringing amendments to you on an annual basis to that code.

Uh but also when you look at what we do through across all of our departments with a collaboration is these different things come in.

This is why I uh Chief Davis's team that evaluates this sits directly next to our permits team which is directly next to our zoning team because it needs to be a collaborative effort to look at that.

To that end I've I have uh asked Deputy Commissioner Owen Kearney uh Deputy Commissioner of Planning and Sustainability that he pulled together as exactly as Chief said uh all of the different experts that we have in the city uh on how what does this look like going forward my grave concern is exactly what you raised earlier about the fact that our uh uh generation and our transmission is not going to grow at anywhere near the rate that the community is going to grow we're just it's not working out that way.

So we need to find other situations or we need to find other ways to address the issue.

So uh we have neighbors that feel safe but also have electricity when there's really there's peak demand.

And so that what this project does is uh it's spurred us to be able to say so what does that look like in a healthy way?

And so Owen's going to lead that team for us and be able to make sure that we've got all the experts coming together recognizing that there is change that needs to happen.

We do need to find a way to be able to address these shortcomings in the grid uh but we need to do it in a way that's safe.

So uh as far as urgency goes what be what do you perceive that?

I mean this is this is urgent for us.

We we do believe it uh with the amount of growth that we keep I so think about this month.

Many of us were just at the the closing over at uh for East Adams phase one.

Syracuse developmental center the financial closing as the groundbreaking yesterday the financial closing for Syracuse developmental center is about to happen uh that you know that's another uh very large project we've got the financial closing for phase two for East Adams that's about to happen as is Eastwood Heights uh the Almus Oliver Tower rehab is is underway Maria Regina and Parkside Commons both have new I I could literally go on and on uh uh I was just at an affordable housing conference where everybody's talking about these large 25 million dollar housing projects that's fantastic we've got four that are closing that at the end of this year that are four times that each so the rate of growth that we're seeing we must do something to address the issue with a grid so uh I would say um you know recognizing the urgency that a collaborative uh between codes and fire in your office NBD uh so we can come up with some sort of procedural vehicle where we can address these issues would you be okay with that I'd uh absolutely what about you counselors counselors any comments I would just like to see if you're gonna do that have at least a community person involved in that conversation.

Yeah so what uh what we want to be able to do is make sure that we have a holistic look at uh what opportunity is what impact is what uh and what the the risk is uh you know do nothing is always an option the the risk of that is pretty stark uh you know if we have brownouts and people do not have access to their medical equipment that that's a incredibly dangerous problem.

So what we're looking to do is make sure that we can find something that is safe in use while also safe uh in protecting what our future needs are I think we also must recognize that there's areas of the city this that something like this were might be more suitable than right in an area that I I foresee in the future being more residential than anything else.

So I'm sorry cut you off.

No that's it.

That's what I just wanted to make that statement.

So appreciate it appreciate that so we can depend on you tying this together pretty soon as far as the uh I cannot give you a timeline right now other than the fact that I know that uh Deputy Commissioner Kearney has already uh started to reach out to the appropriate uh people internally to to look at scheduling and I think our message is you know we're not totally rejecting this technology but we just want to make sure we get it right so it's safe and we're we're we're we have our we don't have our blinders on with all the concerns that are are in front of us right now and I think this group that uh Deputy Commissioner Croney's putting together uh with all the people that are gonna have on it I think we'll get to a a place where we'll all be comfortable of what we want to have with these types of projects in our city so okay so so when when you brought this project forward yes did you also look at other spaces beside on the bright East Brighton?

We did um my um actually uh my colleague uh Brad Hunt has a map that I was gonna if it's okay it's a hard copy that shows you um the analysis that we did in the city of Syracuse which I mean to extent there's gonna be collaboration on where these should go we would love to remain involved in that dialogue but basically what we did was we um we identified every substation in the city of Syracuse every distribution substation and we drew a half mile uh circle around that and then within those locations um we looked at uh available industrial land and commercial land that was not adjacent to residential homes and you can see when you look at the city sort of what comes up as the parcels that that you know come to the you know the top of where they can go they can't go from an electrical perspective they can't they have to go on three phase power uh they have to be within let's say half mile no longer than no more than a mile but certainly a half mile from a from a substation and that substation has to have capacity uh to be able to take the energy and and distribute it out so that that immediately narrows the number of places that are appropriate for these but I think this map shows you that there really only are a few places within the city that at least we think uh are appropriate for the location of these um and this just gives you a sense of how our analysis led to where we where we were we reached out to every commercial and industrial landowner within the substation that we're looking at and the one that the landowner who came back with an interest was the one that we went went forward with and when you when you chose uh East Brighton have that was there conversation at all with the uh nearby business his residences at all especially business because that's a heavily dense right business area right uh I so at the at the choosing point no um however um there's been a lot of conversation uh around the community outreach so in bringing it we we went through an intake meeting with codes um then we went through the city planning commission and there was an approval which was conditioned on public outreach and at that point we were already becoming aware of the concerns and uh hopefully the we've we've been seen as a good uh and transparent uh company to work with on community outreach so and and my last question you know from from the inception to to the finish line yeah for the projects that you have done how long have they taken well um from the point of origination of the project to the point where it gets turned on uh it can be four years four years yeah so I get I guess with as you can see here this is we we don't have the the the the mechanism around around regulation yes internally as I said and I think that's that's what you are hearing from this body and from the chief as well.

Yeah I'm wondering that with with four years that that Commissioner Collin what did you go?

Commissioner Collin I I think with with the time frame to be able to develop a a plan to to manage these things.

You know I we would we should be able to have enough time to do this because to what everybody has echoed earlier right it's it's it's important to know that this is the future right and we don't want to get left behind.

I know there's tons tons of risk but this is the future and and we got it we got to figure something out or otherwise it it's we're going to get left behind and we don't want to get left behind.

Right?

So how do we how quickly do we get this plan going so we don't miss out on opportunity like this.

So I it's a great question because of the fact that I uh asked Deputy Commissioner Kearney to look at this uh just very recently and he is now starting to pull people together uh I am wary to offer a time frame until we've pulled people together that are able to tell us uh exactly all of the different things that we feel that we need to evaluate and what it takes to access the information to do that.

Uh I am wary to offer a time frame until we've pulled people together that are able to tell us uh exactly all of the different things that we feel that we need to evaluate and what it takes to access the information to do that.

So um what my promise to you is uh is that we're we're on it already.

So we the you know the the that's this is already underway, uh and we will work to be very efficient with it.

Uh how what that timeline looks like, it's honestly uh with the holiday in front of me, it's it's gonna be some weeks before I can get back to you and say I expect within uh 90 days, within 180 days, we're gonna have something really, really solid for you.

I just I can't reasonably predict that at the moment.

But it is absolutely priority for us uh because as continued projects come forward, one of the things that we have to uh any project needs to do, uh residential or otherwise, is demonstrate to National Grid how much uh electricity it's gonna draw in National Grid's got to take a look at how much capacity does the substation that serves that parcel, uh how much capacity does that substation have.

And we have already run into some situations where the um when they when they model how much uh electricity it's gonna draw, my understanding is that they have to be extremely conservative.

So they have to put the biggest number possible out there.

And when that happens, uh the reality is often significantly less.

But from a planning perspective, to make sure that it's safe, they've got to go with a bigger number.

So we need to make sure that we understand what does uh the sighting of some ability to be able to store uh store power next to that substation or near you know, in whatever proximity needs to happen within that substation.

What's that gonna mean to delivery?

And what's that gonna mean to our ability to keep these projects rolling?

So because of that, we internally just have a need to make sure that we're as efficient as possible with this.

That was a long-winded answer, sorry.

That's that's good uh now.

I wanted to ask one more question.

Mr.

Nolan, as far as your company goes, uh what what's your what's your record as far as accidents and things like that go?

We have zero uh accents with respect to our company.

May I um uh before I may I just um add one piece, which is I just acknowledging what's been said by the chief and the and the commissioner, and also um our kind of um wanting to be in dialogue and reaching out to the common council, and we're not uh we're we're we're in a place where we would like to remain in collaboration around where is appropriate for these to go.

So uh we're we have some industry expertise.

Um we understand that for the city of Syracuse, these are the first batteries to be proposed, and that you want to get it right.

We understand all of that.

We would, you know, it can be useful to have a project as a basis for understanding what's going on broadly with the technology.

That's what we hope our proposal will will do.

Um the awareness of safety ultimately can relate to the appropriateness of should relate to the appropriateness of location.

So as we get more educated about safety, we get to understand what's appropriate really from a setback perspective.

Our company would like to remain engaged.

We would um we would be happy to fund um dollars to hire for the city to hire its own independent agency or uh rather industry experts to advise as part of this process.

We just want to remain, we would like our project to be remained in in the game and essentially in this discussion.

That's all.

Well, we thank you for your offer there, Mr.

Nolan.

Yeah, chief.

I just want to reiterate, and I brought it up at a study session.

Um the preliminary review we did of this specific project, what was presented, um, it did not meet the letter of the code.

That's um that's uh premature before this permit and the council reviews um and approves or disapproves this land permit um special use permit.

But I just want to say what was presented to us, it does not meet the code as the code is written.

So um there's still work to be done on that, and I wanted to bring to light the broader um other topics that go along with this, but I just want to be clear on that um messaging also.

So we've been in contact with the developer um to let them know where our stance is, but I just want that to be um heard today that um that's part of my holdback on you know giving you a a better recommendation on any approval because what we have reviewed um isn't where we think it should be with the code.

I just have one other question.

I've been sitting on this one.

This may have something to do with it, it may not.

So when we talk about the substations, we know that national grid has raised their rates and stuff because they have to do upgrades to the substations.

How much is this gonna take from that and how much is this gonna add to that?

This will um this will re uh replace what is otherwise a million dollar investment in that substation with our so our company is part of the project.

We would be financing that and it would not fall in the back of ratepayers, which is how they would otherwise cover the cost of that.

Um I'll also just just to add recognizing that um we understand the chief uh the perspective on uh uh on the project so far as proposed and and the code.

And we're um completely open to design changes that may or may not get us to where the chief and his staff thinks we need to be.

Well with that if I may just clarify a response in a previous question.

Uh I apologize, counselor.

You asked the question on the vegetation.

How we interpreted that question, the code requires a certain distance to vegetation, to trees, to shrubs.

And we interpreted that question to mean to ask how are they going to make sure that that vegetation doesn't grow into that that space.

Your question was on toxic emissions.

In under normal operating parameters, these systems, and I I I would be surprised if not every single person in this room had a lithium-ion battery on them.

There are no emissions.

Okay, toxic or otherwise.

Okay.

Um there is the the small amount of noise from the the HVAC systems, but emissions in general, they don't happen.

In the extremely unlikely event of an incident.

The incidents in New York State have shown there's been no or no air, water or soil impact off site.

Okay.

And from incidents I've responded to personally, I can I can testify to that.

There was no water impact, no soil, no air.

A campfire, a large building fire, they all emit toxic chemicals.

The biggest marker we see in in the exhaust stream from any incident is carbon monoxide.

That is the same gas that can be pushed into a house from a malfunctioning boiler, a malfunctioning stove, or otherwise.

All you're saying is it's not gonna release anything toxic.

Not during normal operation, but you are fully responsible for this area in the maintaining right area.

The developer, I won't speak to that.

Maintain liability insurance if that's the question that we can you know, we can provide certification as to that amount.

Okay.

I'm sorry.

With the noise, how do you you you said that's a little bit of it, and you know that.

How do you manage that to make sure that it doesn't disturb?

If I answer that, I'll be stepping outside of my subject matter expertise.

Um the uh the equivalent sound noises of of a commercial HVAC system like uh outside a commercial building that you would hear turn on to like um condensers for air conditioning, so it's the fans and those related, that's the related noise that we're talking about.

It's all addressed in the secret, correct, Barry?

Your the planning commission is part is the lead agency on that, so they'd all be all addressed in secret.

So is there any other questions for my colleagues?

You've had your quota already, Councilman.

Uh we have a council Williams.

Um Councilman Williams, yes, I wanted to recognize Councilman Williams you got here, but um Are you okay, Councilman Williams?

Okay.

Well, I'm gonna hold this item uh and we're not gonna vote on it Monday.

Uh our next, you know, when we do have a next meeting, uh it might be a public hearing too because I want to hear the res what the residents have to say.

But it seems I appreciate everybody here.

It seems like we have the city has a lot of uh has some work to do, and I appreciate you come in chief and certainly to develop Mr.

Nolan and Lieutenant and you thank you very much.

I'll call her ask for an adjournment.

So move seconds.